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"T" going, going...?

#21

(04-12-2011, 03:58 PM)karen Wrote:  As your requested I will refrain from attacking you .... and in turn I ask that anytime you write a post, that you preview it, and question yourself .... do I know enough about a persons life to sit in judgement of what that person is doing .... and if you do not, don't click on the "Post Reply" button.

Karen

Will do.

B.
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#22

Pms
Pureieria mirifica starvation puts new meanings on the initials ?

I came off it , my wife ordered me straight back on it

Julie


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#23

Julie,

Smart wife, hang onto her.

All this PM withdrawal talk has me curious. I've only taken 2 bottles worth, but have felt no noticeable differences mentally or physically. I believe, however, that they are working, since I have reduced my Premarin intake by 80%, and lost nothing. Now, a little over a months' worth of usage isn't much, but I know from past experience that as soon as I went off Premarin before, Things started going missing. And it wasn't because I misplaced them. A short time ago, last week, I dropped everything for a week because I was concerned that something caused a skin breakout that was extremely bothersome to the point of interfering with my sleep. Turned out to be some kind of infection, which, incidentally, showed up on the blood tests in the high white cell count. Point is, no changes were noted while off everything. Since I have had neither positive nor negative responses to PM, I can only surmise that the Premarin Has already rendered me incapable of any such responses. Trust me, with Premarin there were numerous effects besides boob growth. My wife still finds it humorous when I tear up, which can be over the silliest things.
So, when I hear of the problems encountered by some when stopping PM, I am unable to empathize, because, I guess I'm already beyond that. I can say, that when I stopped Premarin before, no changes in attitude were noticed, so this must be a PM phenomenon?? I have a mixed opinion of this, as it seems to be an upsetting condition for those who undergo it, yet , at the same time I'm almost pissed that it won't happen to me.Huh How twisted did I just get?

Since I've gotten off-thread,
I'm going to bed.
Twasn't meant to rhyme,
But I've used up my time.

Later, all, and I love it when we're all being nice! Patti
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#24

(05-12-2011, 08:08 AM)PattiJT Wrote:  Julie,

Smart wife, hang onto her.

All this PM withdrawal talk has me curious. I've only taken 2 bottles worth, but have felt no noticeable differences mentally or physically. I believe, however, that they are working, since I have reduced my Premarin intake by 80%, and lost nothing. Now, a little over a months' worth of usage isn't much, but I know from past experience that as soon as I went off Premarin before, Things started going missing. And it wasn't because I misplaced them. A short time ago, last week, I dropped everything for a week because I was concerned that something caused a skin breakout that was extremely bothersome to the point of interfering with my sleep. Turned out to be some kind of infection, which, incidentally, showed up on the blood tests in the high white cell count. Point is, no changes were noted while off everything. Since I have had neither positive nor negative responses to PM, I can only surmise that the Premarin Has already rendered me incapable of any such responses. Trust me, with Premarin there were numerous effects besides boob growth. My wife still finds it humorous when I tear up, which can be over the silliest things.
So, when I hear of the problems encountered by some when stopping PM, I am unable to empathize, because, I guess I'm already beyond that. I can say, that when I stopped Premarin before, no changes in attitude were noticed, so this must be a PM phenomenon?? I have a mixed opinion of this, as it seems to be an upsetting condition for those who undergo it, yet , at the same time I'm almost pissed that it won't happen to me.Huh How twisted did I just get?

Since I've gotten off-thread,
I'm going to bed.
Twasn't meant to rhyme,
But I've used up my time.

Later, all, and I love it when we're all being nice! Patti

Hi Patti,

It's not a PM phenomenon - any estrogen will do it to a TS brain which has got that way due to a lack of androgen at a particular phase of foetal development.

Apparently, it is a classic test. Most men who have it bad as I do wind up transitioning the "whole hog", to the detriment of family life. That's one reason why I'm determined to find a herbal coping mechanism - And I think I have.

The other effect of PM for me is that I no longer feel the urge to cross-dress, and others experience that too. Notably, you don't get that either, do you?

On the other hand, estrogen doesn't give you anxiety either, which leads me to the theory that the amount of androgen deprivation, varying as it will in a continuum, will produce varying degrees of this response, and it estrogen exposure has no effect on your anxiety, calming/aggravating, that suggests to me that you have an androgynous brain.

There's a really good website here:

http://www.avitale.com/FAQ.htm

Dr Vitale has experience of over 450 cases. I've cut and paste relevant sections below.

TTFN

B.


15. Is there a diagnostic test, for example, genetic testing, that will let one know if they are ..... transsexual ...?

No. there is no genetic test that can be administered to tell anyone what their sexuality is. That can only be done by honest self examination. Transsexualism, which has nothing to do with sexual preference, is different. We can't do a genetic test, but we can administer cross-sex hormones and see if the individual responds positively or negatively to them. That procedure is routinely done after the individual has had an extensive period of psychotherapy and is fully aware of the consequences. A negative reaction would result in extreme anxiety and discomfort. A positive reaction is one where the individual reports a calming affect. Often described as a feeling of well-being.


CATEGORY 6: HORMONES
1. I have heard that one of the uses of hormone replacement therapy is to see if the individual accepts or rejects the treatment. In your experience (or in other documented sources) where there was a rejection, what are the responses?

First of all, keep in mind that a referral for hormone replacement therapy is made with great caution. Individuals are not only evaluated for severity of gender variance but they are educated to the effect the hormones will have on them. Most of the people I see come in very aware of the effect HRT will have on their secondary sex characteristics but few are aware of the general health risks and the psychological effects they will experience. For example, I explain to all my clients MTF clients that paradoxically taking estrogen will diminish not only their libido, it will diminish their need to crossdress. I know that is counterintuitive but it is a fact.
I also warn them that getting on estrogen can result in a sense of well being that leads to a strong desire to continue taking it. They had better be prepared for that consequence.
.....

15A. How long does it take, if at all, to determine a reaction from hormones?

There is ALWAYS a reaction to taking cross sex exogenous hormones. If the individual has a history of gender dysphoria or as I would prefer to call it, Gender Expression Deprivation Anxiety, the primary reaction is a relaxing one. That is the individual experiences feelings of well being as the anxiety is relieved. If a non gender dysphoric person is exposed to cross sex, exogenous hormones, the opposite occurs; a state of anxiety is induced that goes away once the hormones are no longer being taken. The time period for all of this to occur is very short, ranging from hours to no more then a few days.

The other, more physical changes take longer and are not easily reversable. If a genetic male takes estrogens, he will start to notice tenderness in his nipples in a matter of weeks as the first signs of breast development. The rest of the feminzation will gradually happen over the rest of the period he continues to take the hormones. Depending on the person's age and level of male development at the start of the process, it usually takes six to twelve months before the changes are so advanced that friends and acquaintances would notice and may start to inquiry about your appearance. Of course, a spouse or lover would notice much sooner.
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#25

(05-12-2011, 09:07 AM)bryony Wrote:  ...The other effect of PM for me is that I no longer feel the urge to cross-dress, and others experience that too. Notably, you don't get that either, do you?

.....but we can administer cross-sex hormones and see if the individual responds positively or negatively to them. .... A negative reaction would result in extreme anxiety and discomfort. A positive reaction is one where the individual reports a calming affect. Often described as a feeling of well-being.

.....I explain to all my clients MTF clients that paradoxically taking estrogen will diminish not only their libido, it will diminish their need to crossdress. I know that is counterintuitive but it is a fact.
I also warn them that getting on estrogen can result in a sense of well being that leads to a strong desire to continue taking it.


All of these extracts postulate either a definite positive or definite negative reaction, but nothing seems to allow for a middle of the road response, and I very firmly believe that is my case.

1) Yes, I've lost the need to cross-dress but it comes back if I drop PM for about 4 weeks.
2) No, I haven't noticed any calming/well being type feelings - if anything I personally feel as though I am more easily angered/irritated, although my wife says she hasn't noticed anything.
3) After a few months ( I think its about a 6-month cycle) of continual PM, I get the "Why am I doing this?" feelings, which eventually lead me to stop taking PM.
4) After a few weeks of no PM, two things happen:
a) I start to panic that my growth is deflating and I have to go back on the PM.
b) I start to want to cross-dress, but that disappears as soon as I start PM again.

Now on that basis I have some of the classic symptoms of both of the states that Ann Vitale postulates.

So I am on a see-saw, of which there is no obvious way to get off.

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#26

Exactly
So what do we do ?
Julie
Angry
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#27

(05-12-2011, 07:47 PM)Pansy-Mae Wrote:  All of these extracts postulate either a definite positive or definite negative reaction, but nothing seems to allow for a middle of the road response, and I very firmly believe that is my case.

1) Yes, I've lost the need to cross-dress but it comes back if I drop PM for about 4 weeks.
2) No, I haven't noticed any calming/well being type feelings - if anything I personally feel as though I am more easily angered/irritated, although my wife says she hasn't noticed anything.
3) After a few months ( I think its about a 6-month cycle) of continual PM, I get the "Why am I doing this?" feelings, which eventually lead me to stop taking PM.
4) After a few weeks of no PM, two things happen:
a) I start to panic that my growth is deflating and I have to go back on the PM.
b) I start to want to cross-dress, but that disappears as soon as I start PM again.

Now on that basis I have some of the classic symptoms of both of the states that Ann Vitale postulates.

So I am on a see-saw, of which there is no obvious way to get off.

Hi Pansy-Mae,

Well, Patti doesn't appear to have any symptoms at all. As I said to her,
"On the other hand, estrogen doesn't give you anxiety either, which leads me to the theory that the amount of androgen deprivation, varying as it will in a continuum, will produce varying degrees of this response, and if estrogen exposure has no effect on your anxiety, calming/aggravating, that suggests to me that you have an androgynous brain."

Now, you do have some, but not all of the symptoms.

1), 3), and 4) above match the TS response. I think (3) in particular matches the case mentioned in the paper on "Testosterone Toxicity" whereby someone had the full GRS, got fed up, tried to transition back to a male, took male hormones and immediately started to cross-dress again.

Can I suggest that the effect in (2) is subtle? Is it possible that you were exposed to more androgen in the womb than I, but not enough to prevent your brain being predisposed to transsexual behaviour? I suspect I had very little exposure, because I have a deep, deep calming effect - but this is only in contrast to the screwed up person that I had become.

Is it possible that you do not experience calming or anxiety, like Patti, but that the easily "angered/irritated" that your wife doesn't notice is due to your increased emotional sensitivity enhanced by estrogen?

If you had more exposure than me, but not enough to be "bog standard" male, isn't it possible that you would enjoy feminine expression and a longing to have been female without experiencing the profound gender anxiety that Vitale describes? Unless there is a critical "tipping point" value of androgen, this would make sense. And given the complexity of lifeforms, I think a continuum is more likely.

Don't forget, Darwin's theory is only concerned with behaviour that gets you to mating. What happens to you after that doesn't matter a damn in evolutionary terms. If, as an adult, you get sufficient testosterone going that you get the urge to breed, then the fact that (if you are lucky enough to get there) in middle age you get neuroses and paranoia is neither here nor there. It isn't sufficient evolutionary pressure to make androgen exposure in the womb a critical value.

So, going along with my theory (which may be a load of dingo's kidneys) I could conceive of a set of people who don't get screwed up about life, the future, whether there is a global conspiracy to funnel money from the West to the East under the cloak of Global Warming (to take a random example) BUT who feel very much more comfortable expressing their femininity by e.g. dressing as women, growing breasts, etc.

So, given a graphic distribution of foetal androgen exposure, I would say that I was in the group of extremely low exposure, confirmed by my anxiety without PM (and the dubious 2D:4D test ratio of 1.0), Julie may have had a bit more because I don't think she gets more than just a bit grumpy, you have had even more androgen exposure than us, and Pattie, who never loses the desire to dress has possibly had more still.

However, none of us have had enough androgen to be "straight" males that experience anxiety when exposed to testosterone, don't want to dress up, don't want to grow breasts.

"That's my theory, which is mine, and I own it. Ahem". (Remember that?)

B.

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#28

(05-12-2011, 08:01 PM)julieTG Wrote:  Exactly
So what do we do ?
Julie
Angry

Do you mean losing the urge to actually benefit from the enlarged breasts in terms of fun and fantasy etc?

You could try what I'm doing. I think Pansy-Mae has a problem with lead/lag times, but I find that my system is pretty much flushed of PM after a week, without any perceptible growth loss. By the end of that week, I'm quite interested in my boob development and thoughts of lingerie etc. Given that it takes time after resuming PM to lose interest, there's probably a week or so when I would be cross-dressing if I had the opportunity.

My primary motive is to "deprogram" for a reality check, but you could look on it as a week of fun and frolics during your breast growth programme.

Just a suggestion!

B.
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#29

Bryony,

In general terms I've come to much the same conclusions about myself that you have put forward above.

The reason I said about a 6 month cycle, is that the first time it happened and I stopped PM, was about 5 months after I got my first growing pains... I stopped for 4 weeks and then started again after the 6th month. Then 5 months on from there I got the same urge to stop, which I actually did about a week ago. So far I feel no different, one way or another, and I'm waiting with some amusement to see if in 2 or 3 weeks time I get both the urge to dress and the need to take PM again!

If I have a choice, I'm kind of hoping that I can hold off the PM long enough to break the 'addiction' and simply enjoy what remains of what I've developed ( because I DO enjoy them). We'll see.
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#30

Thanks Bryony,

I found the Vitale site quite interesting. Haven't yet decided where I would fall in all of it, though. How much androgen I was exposed to "in the oven", I'm not sure of. However, the fact that I started scalp hair loss at the ripe old age of 17 leads me to believe there was plenty of it there by that time, at latest, and very little slowing down good 'ole DHT. I was rather athletic, playing on high school varsity teams, and even though I was good, and had great fun, some of it was a put-on, as I was aware even at 12 years that something was wrong. Down on the farm, agricultural area, real conserative culture. Woe was me!!

My lack of withdrawal symptoms puzzles me some, but not a lot. Despite my upbringing, physical abilities, and a 21 year military career, I was always of what you would call mild-mannered, considerate, almost submissive character. A lover, not a fighter, if you will. The fact is, I did experience many changes going on hormones, but they were so gradual, that I didn't notice them for some time. The only one that reared it's head abruptly was the emotional flip. The first time I cried at something on tv was really embarrassing, and I quickly went to the bathroom before my wife could notice. Can't hide that sort of thing very long, and she was pretty curious the 1st time she observed it. Now accepts it, and just giggles when it happens. Of course, I was immediately aware what the cause was, but was very surprised at the suddenness of it. Other changes: It has calmed me, to the point that sometimes she wishes I would get more fired up about things, or people, that upset her, and that she thinks should upset me. Anxiety level is lower, though I can still get tweaked at times, but to a lower amount, and for a shorter time. I don't think she attributes the calmer amd less anxious me to the hormones as much as she does the fact that I've gotten older (and hopefully smarter), and that I retired last month. That in itself has brought on a whole new type of anxiety, but I believe the hormones are helping a lot in that matter.

Dressing? No real change. For me, the main purpose of acquiring these "mounds of fun", as well as other minor changes, was to appear more feminine, become a bit more feminine, and look better doing it. I admit to taking a week or so away from it on occasion, but that's usually due a variety of influences moreso than a lack of desire. Don't need bra & panty lines when I go to the Doc, Or if one of the kids and family visit or vice versa. And I do miss it when I have to put it away. Another form of anxiety. Before I retired, it was mostly come home from work, chat a bit with my wife, shower & shave, into lingerie and a nightie and such, and off to bed. In the morning, lounge and chat some more, change into skirt and top, hardly ever any pants, and help her a bit before off to work, and do it all over again. 10 or 12 hour workdays shut all that off, when they occurred. Now, being home more, has altered it a bit, since every day is a weekend. Don't wear any femme out of the house.

I used to have the notion that I looked better padded to a 38C or so, and she often asked me why I went so big. Now that I'm a solid B, and no longer padding, I guess I fit her ideas of proportions as I have not heard a word. Another thing, I used to dress a bit more sexily, and used more makeup. It seems that I've become more comfortable having become more bodily feminine, and feel better in more casual and appropriate clothing (still skirts), and am also only wearing little or no makeup. And only occasionally. I suppose that my changes in style and makeup could be interepreted as a lessening of desire, but I see it as becoming more befitting of who I've become as a result of the physical changes I've undergone, and continue to undergo. I'm arriving at a place that feels good, and I don't feel the need to be "sexy" nearly as often. Perhaps that was just me trying to appease my Psyche. Said psyche seems to have been slapped and put in it's place. It feels I'm in a spot where I'm not sure when I'm crossdressing, when I'm in male dress, or female dress. At the same time, I'm comfortable either way, as I feel appropriate for the situation, be it at home or out in public. Class D shapeshifter!

Hope I've made sense, Bryony, as I know you've made quite an effort to provide information. Myself, I don't try to analyze it too deeply. I may get paranoid or up to something I'd regret later. I'm comfortable with where I am, and knowing that more changes will be slowly taking place, and will be easily dealt with as they happen. And know what my (and my wifes') limits are.

Thanks for all who are taking the time to explain things, and those who have had comments and questions. It's the only way we're going to define and arrive at our individual goals. Love ya all! Patti

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