[Misty0732]

What I find particularly interesting about this story is Satan didn't lie to Eve: she and Adam didn't die from eating the apple. Furthermore, they gained the knowledge of good and evil.

Actually they did die. God originally created them to be immortal, but the introduction of sin caused physical corruption which led to eventual death. God didn't say they would die immediately, just that they would die. The Christian belief is that the inevitable death is countermanded by the reception of "new bodies" at the resurrection.

Not trying to be confrontational or preachy here, just pointing out a fact of the original story! Whether you believe it or not is up to each person to decide.

Misty

[PattiJT]

Monika,

Good morning, and good night. The "swami" thing was intended to be a bit of humor. Maybe I should have put a "smiley" with it?

I'm glad to see you have had such a wide exposure to other worldwide belief systems. That is a healthy thing, and opens one up to many possibilities. With a little reflection, you could choose (should you want), the parts of different ones that interlock and make sense to you, and basically develop a "religion" that you feel best applies to you. Not trying to piss off the fundamentalists, but isn't it more or less a personal choice what we believe and accept? Conversions happen all the time, and only one "established" religion condemns it's followers if they choose to do so.

I will mention this once, and only once, (and I may regret even doing it one time). My beliefs are a combination of Lutheran, Protestant, Bhuddist, and a bit of Hindu. I only even say it this one time, in order to show you, Monika, that I, personally, find it quite comfortable to include a variety of beliefs in one. I didn't mention Catholic, did I? Well, I never believed in a system where I could basically buy my way out of hell. The belief in "Karma" gets highest regard from me, and that tenet would seem to be in great conflict with believing I could get a "get-out-of-hell-free" card. (And I have absolutely no desire to learn the least bit of latin).

So, never again will I mention my "religious affiliation". Read it now, or forever wonder. It was never my intent to favor or fault any particular religion, simply that this is not the best place for it. Perhaps I'm wrong, seeing as how our moderator has allowed this to continue. Maybe she is more than a little curious to see how we handle it? Best to all, Patti

[Lenneth]

*Wonders why everyone is feeding the Troll by posting on this thread*

[PattiJT]

Abi, I'm sorry to see that you feel you and I cannot have a productive discussion. I'm unsure how my unwillingness to change "sex" to "gender" can be interpreted as discarding anything you say. I can be a bit dense at times, though.

Since our moderator is intent on letting the kids play, let us play. I'd like to explore the difference, (as I see it) between whole, and damaged. (I will put religious names in parentheses with the understanding that some may not wish to see them, but references must be made in order to conduct the discussion). As you said, "Christ" healed. He "healed", he did not "make whole". the people he is said to have healed were damaged in one way or another, but they were still "whole" at the time of healing. Even Lazarus. Seems like splitting hairs, but it isn't, IMO. When a person is born with all the necessary parts, and of the correct number, then they should be considered "whole", should they not? When, through an injury, or an illness, their body becomes "damaged" then they require "healing". Yes, I agree, we should try to heal them. There is another side to that, as well. There are a few religious sects whose devoutness and beliefs require them to accept whatever may be visited upon them, and consider it to be "Gods'" will. No medical services allowed. Question being, are they right, or are we? And does it really matter? You can probably see where I'm going here. I would venture to guess that most, if not all, of us here are, by MY definition, whole people. But, are we "damaged"? Do we therefore require "healing". Assuming we have all our required parts, in the requisite numbers, whose determination is it that we are not in the condition that "God" precisely intended us to be in? "God" wouldn't do that? "He's" described as being vengeful, fierce, and could even be called murderous. Why couldn't he have a sense of humor, and give us something to deal with? After all, we got our sense of humor from somewhere. This was the reason I mentioned "devoutness". A truly devout "Christian" would have no choice other than accept and deal with a GD situation. When one mentions "I am a "Christian", I take that as meaning just that. Saying "I come from a "Christian" background, means that perhaps you are a bit more progressive, and able to deal with your perceived GD and not be tied to such a strict interpretation of faith. Incidentally, a person of "Bhuddism" would have a whole different outlook on being created with a built-in defect. Perfectly understandable to them. Has to do with reincarnaction and the purpose of the soul/spirit. The phrase "these are the times that test mens' souls" falls right in place with them.

So, when I ask, are you broken? Are you damaged? That's kind of where I'm coming from. And who made which decision? Us? Do we really have that right? Thus, why I said, some of us will maybe have to abandon a bit of our religion in order to assume the right to make those decisions that our religion supposedly presumes has been made for us at the time of creation.

I would, however, take "minor" issue with one thing you posted. You said that man has the "means, power, and knowledge", and should exercise it in "absolutely any circumstances. I imagine you spoke of that in a "healing" sense, but it was quite an open-ended statement. Maybe even a bit arrogant. Therefore, having the means and power to fornicate, be promiscous, maim, murder and so forth should be taken as authority to do so? Sorry, that was a ridiculous statement, in light of what I believe your real intentions were. BUT, man has had that means and power, and abused it before, resulting in a near wipe-out of the human species. Taken a bit further, does having the knowledge to create life, or develop artificial intelligence mean that we should do it under "absolutely any circumstances"? (And those are just a couple of the scary things we DO know about). Assuming that "God" is, above all, honest, and won't send us another flood, maybe he will exercise his "sense of humor" (hopefully with some great sadness) and let us just destroy ourselves. We definitely have the ability, the arrogance, and the lack of good moral judgement to do just that.

Hope I haven't confused you, or upset you. While we have come a long ways from the OP's original intent, I am still intrigued with where we have gone, and how we have gotten there. Fire away! Patti

[PattiJT]

Sorry Lenneth. I would like to (if I may) somewhat officially declare this thread to no longer the property of said troll. At the very least, I guess we can declare it totally hi-jacked.

[AbiDrew85]

Abi, I'm sorry to see that you feel you and I cannot have a productive discussion. I'm unsure how my unwillingness to change "sex" to "gender" can be interpreted as discarding anything you say. I can be a bit dense at times, though.

Because this is at the absolute core of my identity and therefore the entire reason the discussion even exists. Gender is a spiritual thing for me. Sex is anatomy 101. Our anatomy is neither decided by, influenced by, nor decides or influences our spirit. Our minds are also a spirit muscle to my perceptions, based largely on principles taught me in my sect of Christianity. I have a female spirit. But I have a male body. This causes a conflict within me, which we'll get to more later.

Since our moderator is intent on letting the kids play, let us play. I'd like to explore the difference, (as I see it) between whole, and damaged. (I will put religious names in parentheses with the understanding that some may not wish to see them, but references must be made in order to conduct the discussion).

OK. I'll try even though I know you'll never get where I'm coming from.

As you said, "Christ" healed. He "healed", he did not "make whole". the people he is said to have healed were damaged in one way or another, but they were still "whole" at the time of healing. Even Lazarus. Seems like splitting hairs, but it isn't, IMO.

Actually...

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=made+whole&x=0&y=0

Christ specifically called most of his healings a "making whole". What he was REALLY talking about though was not the physical aspect of his healings, that was just healing, but the spiritual aspect that went along with it. That's the making whole.

Forgive the use of the LDS scriptures site for the references, but it's the easiest Bible for me to link to on the internet. And it's basically just the King James version.

When a person is born with all the necessary parts, and of the correct number, then they should be considered "whole", should they not? When, through an injury, or an illness, their body becomes "damaged" then they require "healing".

Again, you're free to make your own decision as regards what Christ meant by "made whole", but the fact remains that to "make whole" the person must not have been whole. Yet they, mostly, had all the necessary parts in correct number.

Yes, I agree, we should try to heal them.

Healing is of the body... what about the spirit?

There is another side to that, as well. There are a few religious sects whose devoutness and beliefs require them to accept whatever may be visited upon them, and consider it to be "Gods'" will. No medical services allowed. Question being, are they right, or are we? And does it really matter?

Doesn't matter when it comes to explaining my own actions. I am not of any of those sects.

Personally, I feel they are doing a mighty fine job of ignoring basically the entire New Testament.

You can probably see where I'm going here. I would venture to guess that most, if not all, of us here are, by MY definition, whole people.

That would be your definition. But considering your belief system I find it absolutely insane that you continue to ignore how the spirit factors in. By my definition, any damage done to the spirit makes one no longer whole until that is somehow made whole again.

But, are we "damaged"? Do we therefore require "healing". Assuming we have all our required parts, in the requisite numbers, whose determination is it that we are not in the condition that "God" precisely intended us to be in? "God" wouldn't do that?

Oh, yes he would. God has repeatedly allowed evil to be done that we may be tested by it. No, I don't imagine he does it to us himself MOST of the time. But he allows it. He allowed for sin to enter the world and we are now living with ALL the consequences of that allowance. This is part of that.

"He's" described as being vengeful, fierce, and could even be called murderous. Why couldn't he have a sense of humor, and give us something to deal with? After all, we got our sense of humor from somewhere.

Oh yes, he certainly DOES have a sense of humor. Though I don't think my and our experiences cause him any mirth.

This was the reason I mentioned "devoutness". A truly devout "Christian" would have no choice other than accept and deal with a GD situation.

I guess this depends on your point of view. I consider myself VERY devout... But as you can see I'm accepting and dealing with my situation by working to change it. But you see, that's a HUGE part of my particular sects beliefs. When you find yourself in sin, you change yourself to become a better person.

When one mentions "I am a "Christian", I take that as meaning just that. Saying "I come from a "Christian" background, means that perhaps you are a bit more progressive, and able to deal with your perceived GD and not be tied to such a strict interpretation of faith.

For some reason I get the clear picture that you have not had much if any experience with Mormons.

Incidentally, a person of "Bhuddism" would have a whole different outlook on being created with a built-in defect. Perfectly understandable to them. Has to do with reincarnaction and the purpose of the soul/spirit. The phrase "these are the times that test mens' souls" falls right in place with them.

It also falls right into place with us, meaning Mormons.

So, when I ask, are you broken? Are you damaged? That's kind of where I'm coming from. And who made which decision? Us? Do we really have that right? Thus, why I said, some of us will maybe have to abandon a bit of our religion in order to assume the right to make those decisions that our religion supposedly presumes has been made for us at the time of creation.

And I'm coming from a background that believes that WE made ALL the decisions BEFORE the time of creation. As in each individual person had the opportunity to discuss with God what their trials in this life would be, and while God only gave us a few "ordinations" to choose between, the choice WAS ours. And the choice remains ours in this life. The reason I used the word "ordination" and not "destiny" is because nothing in this world is truly DESTINED. It's ORDAINED, but if we make certain choices, that will change even now.

I would, however, take "minor" issue with one thing you posted. You said that man has the "means, power, and knowledge", and should exercise it in "absolutely any circumstances. I imagine you spoke of that in a "healing" sense, but it was quite an open-ended statement. Maybe even a bit arrogant. Therefore, having the means and power to fornicate, be promiscous, maim, murder and so forth should be taken as authority to do so? Sorry, that was a ridiculous statement, in light of what I believe your real intentions were. BUT, man has had that means and power, and abused it before, resulting in a near wipe-out of the human species. Taken a bit further, does having the knowledge to create life, or develop artificial intelligence mean that we should do it under "absolutely any circumstances"? (And those are just a couple of the scary things we DO know about). Assuming that "God" is, above all, honest, and won't send us another flood, maybe he will exercise his "sense of humor" (hopefully with some great sadness) and let us just destroy ourselves. We definitely have the ability, the arrogance, and the lack of good moral judgement to do just that.

Actually, what I said was "Why would God give us the means, power, and knowledge, to do things if we are not to do them under absolutely any circumstances?". What you read it as was "Why would God give us the means, power, and knowledge, to do things if we are not to do them, under absolutely any circumstances?".

A minor little thing, a single comma you inserted that was not there. But it makes a WORLD of difference in the meaning. The question I really posed was to the effect that SOMETIMES we should do what God has enabled us to do. It was a bit of rhetoric really, because of course we should and do do things, all the time. And that's the whole point, it's the LOGIC of WHY the "appeal to nature" you've been repeatedly making is incorrect. Especially when it comes to doing what under any sane compassionate beings perspective would be considered "good".

Hope I haven't confused you, or upset you. While we have come a long ways from the OP's original intent, I am still intrigued with where we have gone, and how we have gotten there. Fire away! Patti

Confusing me is nearly impossible to do, upsetting me... Depends. Lucky for you it's mid-cycle and I'm high on estrogens

[StevenSmith]

I think this group was created for us to communicate our inner
most feelings not to be judged by others who feel the need to rant.

[Bewbs]

Transgenderism is about being whoever you want to be. The end.

[Lacey Ra]

My thoughts on transgenderism have recently be changed, I use to be for it but after reading more and more articles of transgender woman going into places and revealing their male bits in the presence of young females I don't know if I support them anymore. Especially now that there are laws that say a man can just say he's a woman and walk into the woman's bathroom how he feels, to me this opens doors for pedophila and sexual assaults against real women, well that's what I've understood from the the new Massachusetts bill. And these same laws says to women, natural women, that they're aware of our discomfort but that we can't do anything and we just have to let this person do as they please. I may be reading into it wrongly though, but this is just what I grasped.

So as woman, yea I do feel that transgenderism reinforces feminism in certain ways. Because these laws were written by men for ultimately men/transgender women, this is another case of men looking out for men and then throws real women under the bus for getting upset that a man with male parts is using the female bathroom.

I'm still wading through my feelings on this and watching the news for more accurate info as it comes available but if it continues in this trend where transgender women are pushing women out of our own places then I do see myself against transgenderism which I don't to be but I won't be pushed out either, I was here first ya know. I ain't gunna stand by while real women are being forced out of our own gender/sex for men/transgender women to tell us what a women should and should not look like/act like/be like.

It's really all very confusing right now, for any kinda women but I do believe women and transgender women can and will somehow over come our barriers. One of the things I'd like to see but have not is simply respect from our transgender peers. Women have been pushed to the back, we've had to battle our husbands/sons/fathers to get where we are now. A women just doesn't feel her own pain, she feels the pain of other oppressed women over generations, that's what spurred the women's right movement yall know, we had to fight for our hopes and dreams. Women have such an amazing history, we are/were queens, presidents, mothers, daughters and everything in between and we have always had one opponent, men.

So for a transgender person to jump on the feminism train in the past few decades and tell me "Oh I understand yall pain." it somehow cheapens what we as women went through, because NO MAN, non transgender or transgender will ever TRULY understand what being a women is. I mean how do you tell a women who's experience abuse, rape, verbal, mental and physical torture (medieval times) at the hands of men that you a transgender women who was once a man, understands? I think this is why a alot of women can't readily get behind transgenderism, it's like a trojan horse, or something. Transgender women might feel their own pain in terms of the battle they are going through, but it's not my pain, and as a women my pain wouldn't necessarily be your pain. And then when laws like the Mass. one is passed that says real women have to quietly hush themselves and be pushed to the back AGAIN for transgender women it just widens the gap even further.

I believe that the wall of mistrust between women and transgender women can be brought down one stone at a time, firstly with transgender women respecting us as women, and for us women to respect them as transgender women. Like I said I'm still wrestling with this but a time gunna come when we have to make moral stand and I hope women ALL women can stand together but if transgender women continue trying to silence and push biological women into the olden days then my stance will be against and not for, hoping it don't come to that though...

Sorry my thoughts are all jumbled up yall.

[AbiDrew85]

I'm going to have to piece this one out... And I'm removing that terrible color. I'm sorry Emily, but that's just plain hard to read.

My thoughts on transgenderism have recently be changed, I use to be for it but after reading more and more articles of transgender woman going into places and revealing their male bits in the presence of young females I don't know if I support them anymore. Especially now that there are laws that say a man can just say he's a woman and walk into the woman's bathroom how he feels, to me this opens doors for pedophila and sexual assaults against real women, well that's what I've understood from the the new Massachusetts bill. And these same laws says to women, natural women, that they're aware of our discomfort but that we can't do anything and we just have to let this person do as they please. I may be reading into it wrongly though, but this is just what I grasped.

Oh wow the problems with this.

There is no "ism" to transgender. That suffix implies that it's a movement, or something one subscribes to or not. It's not. It's a state. It's being in a body which your mind and soul do not match.

Now... Transgender is still a bit more complex than that, there's those who are somewhere between and generally comfortable enough continuing to present primarily as their assigned sex with some measure of androgyny, and there's those who cross the threshold and can only be comfortable presenting entirely as the gender opposite to that assigned at birth.

Most of the latter group would be called a "transsexual". And NO transsexual is going to wontonly or even knowingly reveal their HATED male bits before they can get them converted.

That leaves accidental. Like you're sitting there with your skirts up and your panties around your ankles and the little girl in the next stall over decides for heaven knows what reason to look under the stall divider at you. Which trust me, it really REALLY freaks us out if something like that happens.

And what else would you have us do? Continue using the men's until we have just one tiny piece of our anatomy surgically altered? That can take YEARS to save up for, if we ever can afford it. Meanwhile the rest of us is looking more and more female, we are presenting entirely female, and what do you think is going to happen if we walk into the men's?

Not anything pretty, I assure you. There's lot's of stories out there of the atrocities that have happened and continue to happen to "trans" women forced to use public men's rooms. It can range from assault to rape to murder. Never are we simply ignored in a men's room.

Women's rooms are often only slightly better when we're not being chased away from them. At least there the worst USUALLY offered is verbal assault and rarely does anything physical happen. We aren't going to offer violence in our defense, and most "natural" women are unlikely to offer violence in protest. It's just not in EITHER of our natures as WOMEN to become overtly violent easily. Only when truly cornered and caged do women tend to lash out.

Of course, some women do become violent and extremely aggressive much more readily than others... I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen. Just not NEARLY as often as men. Something I think you can agree on?

And no. That's one of the wonderful pieces of misinformation being blown out of proportion by the circus more commonly referred to as the American media. Not just ANY man can just say "I'm a woman" and be permitted to use the women's. In fact it's often going to be a challenge just to get to use any public facility at all. There's the matter of presentation, and documentation, and... A "trans" woman must be living as a woman to be able to use the women's facilities. Full time. No going between or anything. It'd be a mighty hard sell to find any man "ballsy" enough to pretend long enough to attempt such a subterfuge just to perform any pedophilic or other sexual assaults. And even if he did, he wouldn't get any mercy from ANYONE.

Besides. The sort of person who WOULD try that, is going to try that even without a rights bill for the sort of people who actually need protection.

It's already happened in places without ANY rights protections of any sort as well as places that do... Disgusting creeps are disgusting creeps no matter where you are or what the laws say.

So as woman, yea I do feel that transgenderism reinforces feminism in certain ways. Because these laws were written by men for ultimately men/transgender women, this is another case of men looking out for men and then throws real women under the bus for getting upset that a man with male parts is using the female bathroom.

Sorry, first, I'm not a "man" with male parts, I'm a woman living with a severe birth defect that is going to cost me lots of money to correct and probably take me years to save up for.

I can't help if you're upset by my using the public restroom and I try VERY hard to avoid using the restrooms in public spaces because I KNOW it's probably going to be a painful experience. But when you've gotta go...

Using the men's is NOT SAFE. That's all there is to it. The women's may be uncomfortable, but at least I don't have to be scared to death of being beaten to death, sexually assaulted, or both.

I'm still wading through my feelings on this and watching the news for more accurate info as it comes available but if it continues in this trend where transgender women are pushing women out of our own places then I do see myself against transgenderism which I don't to be but I won't be pushed out either, I was here first ya know. I ain't gunna stand by while real women are being forced out of our own gender/sex for men/transgender women to tell us what a women should and should not look like/act like/be like.

We're not trying to push anyone anywhere. We're just trying to be who we are and be at least as safe as you are doing it. No one is truly "safe" of course, especially as women of any stripe.

As for telling someone else how to be who they are... That's the LAST thing I'd EVER want to be seen to be doing. I've lived on the receiving end of that kind of pain for long enough thank you.

At the same time I don't want to be told that my trying to more appropriately reflect who I feel I am in my soul IS "trying to tell you how to be a woman". You can be who you are. Let me be who I am. Being female is a PART OF both of us, but it's hardly the ONLY thing to DEFINE us.

It's really all very confusing right now, for any kinda women but I do believe women and transgender women can and will somehow over come our barriers. One of the things I'd like to see but have not is simply respect from our transgender peers. Women have been pushed to the back, we've had to battle our husbands/sons/fathers to get where we are now. A women just doesn't feel her own pain, she feels the pain of other oppressed women over generations, that's what spurred the women's right movement yall know, we had to fight for our hopes and dreams. Women have such an amazing history, we are/were queens, presidents, mothers, daughters and everything in between and we have always had one opponent, men.

And I'm having to fight my parents and siblings and friends and coworkers and random strangers who don't even know me and...

I have a VERY simple rule for my respect: earn it. And it's VERY simple to earn it. Respect everyone else. Not JUST me, but I am part of "everyone". If I see you disrespecting someone, ANYONE, my level of respect for you goes down significantly. I never do have ZERO respect for other people... I just don't. But it's very easy to get to where my level of respect for you is only the absolute bare essential. People who have reached that point tend to think me "rude" and "without manners". But, really, they have even less manners than me and have already quite proven it to have reached the point that I treat them that way. If they wish to be treated better, they'd better start treating others better. And I refuse to be fake. If I don't like you, you better believe you're going to know it.

So for a transgender person to jump on the feminism train in the past few decades and tell me "Oh I understand yall pain." it somehow cheapens what we as women went through, because NO MAN, non transgender or transgender will ever TRULY understand what being a women is. I mean how do you tell a women who's experience abuse, rape, verbal, mental and physical torture (medieval times) at the hands of men that you a transgender women who was once a man, understands? I think this is why a alot of women can't readily get behind transgenderism, it's like a trojan horse, or something. Transgender women might feel their own pain in terms of the battle they are going through, but it's not my pain, and as a women my pain wouldn't necessarily be your pain. And then when laws like the Mass. one is passed that says real women have to quietly hush themselves and be pushed to the back AGAIN for transgender women it just widens the gap even further.

And who's the men? Oh, and I'm not jumping on any such "feminism train". I quite frankly despise radfem and much other feminism besides. They've long since gone from wanting equality to wanting to become queen. They've gone over to demanding to be treated as goddesses rather than a human being just like everyone else who needs to carry their own weight just like everyone else.

Is there still inequality? Yes. Would I like that inequality eliminated? Yes. Am I going to insist on having "it all"? That's stupid. I don't want all privileges and no responsibilities. But that's what a lot of feminists seem to be demanding these days.

And I'm going to concentrate on this statement a bit extra:

how do you tell a women who's experience abuse, rape, verbal, mental and physical torture (medieval times) at the hands of men that you a transgender women who was once a man, understands?

I haven't experienced rape or physical abuse and torture, but I've experienced plenty of mental and verbal abuse and torture. And not just at the hands of men. But women too. And even by my OWN hands. And I understand the fear of the others quite well, though I've not yet, fortunately! experienced them. There's plenty of trans women who have. Some repeatedly. And even some repeatedly for YEARS. Most such die in the process of the abuse and are often unrecognized. It happens to "natural" women and there's a chance it might come to public and widespread light. Happens to a "trans" woman and it's hushed and silenced EVERY TIME.

I believe that the wall of mistrust between women and transgender women can be brought down one stone at a time, firstly with transgender women respecting us as women, and for us women to respect them as transgender women. Like I said I'm still wrestling with this but a time gunna come when we have to make moral stand and I hope women ALL women can stand together but if transgender women continue trying to silence and push biological women into the olden days then my stance will be against and not for, hoping it don't come to that though...

I don't want to be respected as a "transgender" woman. I want to be respected as a woman. And I'm more than happy to respect ANYONE who deserves it, as I said before.

The mistrust is there because of the MEN in the MEDIA making us out to be all scary and evil because that's what THEY WOULD BE. But we aren't men. We're women just like you who have a horrible birth defect which has left us scarred for life.

And no one is trying to push anyone into the "olden days". The cross dressers and transvestites and drag artists are what they are and have always been. They're men. Normal typical men. With a sexual fetish or some other strange reason inexplicable to us women and to other men to do what they do. Just let them be, they really aren't trying to hurt anyone or tell us how to be women, just like (I hope!) no women are trying to tell other women how to be women. And any women who are... well... I suppose they have their reasons.

Me and women like me just want to be able to live our lives the best way that we can, same as any one else, man or woman.

And you'll note that I've put up quotation marks around such words as "trans", "transgender", "natural" and "biological" where used as adjectives to try to separate us from each other. I don't believe there's all that much difference between us. The walls being erected aren't really of my making any more. I've torn most of those down and I'm working diligently at finding and fixing the rest. The only walls remaining are the ones YOU and others LIKE YOU are putting up in response to some imagined threat. And I honestly think most of the women putting these walls up are doing so in response to things that MEN in their lives have been telling them.

As a woman I can only imagine what threat the men think I am to anyone.