[GoneGirl]

The question came up in a discussion the other day about whether engaging in NBE, that is, taking herbal phyto-estrogens and anti-androgens have the effect of lengthening one's natural life span or shortening it, barring psychological complications that sometimes lead to early death.

I don't believe there are any rigorous studies that attempt to answer that question. There seem to be unsubstantiated reports of shortened life spans for transwomen, but I don't put much credence in these stories; just how many transwomen could there be in their 80s and 90s today when the first MTF transsexuals originated in the 60s and 70s? Not enough be statistically significant in making such a claim. Many of the early deaths were due to other factors, e.g., suicide and murder.

Has anyone asked their endo about this? What was their medical opinion? Of course, even an endocrinologist wouldn't be able to say whether herbal substitutes for pharma-HRT drugs are safe or not.

My thinking (wishful) is that since women live longer that men by about 5 years, a transwoman should also have a longer life span on average. Plus, given the fact that miroestrol is less likely to trigger breast cancer than estradiol, and is also known to strength bone tissue, could herbal HRT be even more conducive to good health and long life?

Even if true, it's very important to be monitored by a doctor to ensure that no adverse effects on the liver and kidneys are occurring when on HRT. DIY HRT is strongly discouraged for that reason. I wonder how many of us NBEers are being monitored on a regular basis.

I just wanted to throw this thread out there to generate some discussion. It's always good to get the perspectives of others on the board. It's a great way to learn more about what we're doing when we pop those capsules every day.

Clara

[Karren]

That's why I love using suction devices. Negative air pressure has no known long term medical side effects!

[GoneGirl]

That's why I love using suction devices. Negative air pressure has no known long term medical side effects!

I would agree, Karen. But...the drawback to that approach is it does nothing to alter the hormonal balance of the body. You're still a male in every respect except you have breasts. I guess that meets the objectives for some, but not for me. I didn't start taking PM to grow breasts, but rather to find relief from my mental discomfort, compulsive masturbation, and crossdreaming. I had a gender identity conflict that was too much to bear.

It wouldn't bother me if I couldn't grow breasts with PM. It's the many other aspects of shifting my hormones to female levels that I'm after. Breast growth is simply frosting on the cake. I was prepared to use breast forms if, as I expected, NBE was not successful. Of course, I'm delighted that I AM growing breasts.

The question remains, however, what are the long term consequences of taking these herbs? Do we know of anyone who has been on a PM + AA program for a long time? Mistress Lotus is quick to remind us that we are all guinea pigs in an informal research project called Breast Nexus - Biomales. Do any of you girls have fears that you are doing harm to yourself? If so, why do you take the chance of complications in the future?

Clara

[Samantha Rogers]

Nearly four years for me, Clara, and, as you know, my blood work came back as totally healthy and in fact above average, despite my scotch and cigars...tee hee.

[GoneGirl]

Nearly four years for me, Clara, and, as you know, my blood work came back as totally healthy and in fact above average, despite my scotch and cigars...tee hee.

I'm so glad to hear it, Sammie. Does that mean I should add scotch whiskey and cigars to my program?

Clara

[flamesabers]

The question remains, however, what are the long term consequences of taking these herbs? Do we know of anyone who has been on a PM + AA program for a long time? Mistress Lotus is quick to remind us that we are all guinea pigs in an informal research project called Breast Nexus - Biomales. Do any of you girls have fears that you are doing harm to yourself? If so, why do you take the chance of complications in the future?

No, I don't fear I'm harming myself. I don't think I could have gotten this far with such a fear in the back of my mind. I've been taking pm for nearly two years, spearmint for six months. I know it's anecdotal, but I think my blood pressure has dropped slightly since being on pm. I don't have hard facts, but I'm inclined to think NBE will lengthen one's life. The way I see it, if NBE lowers your stress levels and encourages you to practice better self-care, whether it's physical, mental or emotional, it's not a stretch to assume NBE is beneficial to your health.

If there's one health condition I'm worried about, it's heart disease. Both my father and his father died from it. If lowering my testosterone levels better protects me against suffering the same fate, that's all the better news for me.

[GoneGirl]

My thinking is more or less along the lines of yours, Flame. Especially the notion that stress takes a toll on lifespan, and I think testosterone is meant to heighten physical stress. It is a natural performance enhancing drug, if you think about it.

If I look at it rationally, what are the specific risks to one's health on HRT? DVT (deep vein thrombosis) is one. Increased risk of breast cancer for another. Either could go undetected until they happen. I guess I buy that, but it's no worse for women, right?

Men typically don't go to doctors until they're half dead. Does rebalancing one's sex hormones change that? I think the biggest mistake many people make, cis or trans, is not getting checked out by a medical doctor at least once a year.

I still believe that testosterone leads to early death. Visit any old folks home. The vast majority of the residents are women. Even men who work in physically benign environments die sooner than women. It's got to be the one distinquishing factor: T. Even with a majority of the work force now female, the gap in longevity is still about 5 years.

Clara

[Jessica Leigh]

My only thoughts, without any scientific data to back it, is that taking large amounts of PM lor SP or any other supplement could be detrimental to the kidneys and liver since they are the filters of the body.

On the flip side I also believe that lowering stress will out weigh any detrimental effects caused by the supplements. Human kind has been pretty brutal to itself throughout the ages ingesting all sorts of substances.

And here is one more thought. Imagine in old age suffering from dementia and waking up with breasts but not remembering how you got them... Would that cause even more confusion or be a dream come true?

[flamesabers]

Even men who work in physically benign environments die sooner than women. It's got to be the one distinquishing factor: T. Even with a majority of the work force now female, the gap in longevity is still about 5 years.

I think there are some other important contributors to the longevity gap between genders. For instance, women are more likely to attempt suicide, while men are more likely to succeed. Older men (65+) are especially susceptible to killing themselves I think. Another consideration I think is a lot more men suffer from occupational fatalities than women.

[GoneGirl]

Even men who work in physically benign environments die sooner than women. It's got to be the one distinquishing factor: T. Even with a majority of the work force now female, the gap in longevity is still about 5 years.

I think there are some other important contributors to the longevity gap between genders. For instance, women are more likely to attempt suicide, while men are more likely to succeed. Older men (65+) are especially susceptible to killing themselves I think. Another consideration I think is a lot more men suffer from occupational fatalities than women.

So true, Flame. I don't know if there's any truth to it, but I've heard tell that your length of life is programmed into your genes. The best you can do is reach your genetic potential. People shorten their lives by engaging in all kinds of harmful behaviors. Of course, today, with advanced medical technology, we keep people alive when they would otherwise die. I'm fortunate to be rather healthy for someone my age. Sometimes I fear that playing with my endocrine system will muck things up. Then again, having started NBE late in life, I'm probably limiting the effects, good or bad, as compared to someone who's in their 20s.

Clara (feeling hopeful that I'm doing the right thing)