[EvaMarie]

I sure hope your new voice turns out to be everything you hoped for. Having a feminine voice is very important for passing. I don't think I would be as brave as you in having that procedure done, at least not while there was a chance I could train my voice to be feminine. I'm holding my breath and am interested in hearing a comparison when everything heals up (6 months?).

Keep in mind you may still have to do voice training exercises because raising the pitch alone is not enough to get an authentic sounding female voice. Timbre, which is also important, is mainly determined by the size and geometry of the airway which you have no control over. You will need to move your voice resonance from your chest into your head. That takes months of training to become habitual. Sorry, you probably already know that, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.

Good luck dear,
Clara

Thanks Clara, yes I know all that but I still appreciate your good natured nagging

Im sorry I couldnt meet up with you when I was back in Chicago.... My GF ended up taking off work and I was just very busy throughout this whole trip...

Im hoping once it heals up and I CANT make a low note that it will all just start to work... I mean I was already controlling my resonance for months already... Pitch was my issue I think because I was amazed at just how well my deep voice worked in person... Especially for a while when I was REALLY working on it... It was exhausting for me though and always felt fake... It sucks having to constantly be aware of your voice and it results in a very un natural way of speaking...

I think all the girls who say "voice training is all you need" probably started out in the upper male range, 130-150hz...

I had no trouble at all very comfortably getting nearly 60 hz... Ad that to the upper male range and all of a sudden you are comfortable in the lower female range... THEN Id think it would be easy to relax and just let it take over... Thats what I did but it just wasnt high enough...

I dont expect perfection in any of this right away but I think it will be a whole lot easier this way

[EvaMarie]

I suppose I should also comment on my consultation with Dr Z....

I really liked him and I guess I gotta agree with all of his recommendations... My GF was there with me and she agreed too and I trust her judgement....

He recommended his partially open endoscopic brow bone work and brow lift along with a scalp advancement even though there is no hairline.... He said it would help remove the bald area and give me a better chance at restoring my hair with trans plants... The scar will be covered eventually regardless when that time comes... That was EXACTLY my thinking so it was nice to agree fully with him there

Also of course a nose job and also a lip lift and augmentation... I can see the need for that....

And also chin length reduction and rounding along with jaw and masseter muscle reduction... I agree strongly on the chin but I was really hoping to avoid any jaw work... The incisions for that are in the mouth and the whole thing just sounds quite painful.... Id think the recovery from that sucks and I doubt you can eat much for a while...
Oh well maybe lose some weight... MY GF who again I trust said thats mandatory and one of my giveaways so I'll do that too...

Finally I want and he recommended a full face and neck lift along with fat injections in my laugh lines... He said that while you cant really see my trachea now it will be an issue after the face/neck lift.... I was under the impression at that time that The voice doc would do the trach shave... He said that would be OK and he would work with that...
Im glad I didnt do the CTA though and glad I have no scar on my neck.... IF for some reason Im not happy with the new voice Dr Haben can always do a CTA in addition to the work thats already done... Makes sense to do that AFTER FFS....

Total for all that??? 36K that Im planning on spending in 3-4 months.... The voice doc says 3 months minimum before any other surgery... Gotta be fully healed before the intubation tube can be inserted for anesthetic.... Thats gonna SUCK for sure but Id think Im gonna look pretty damn good afterwards Hell Im sure just that much more time on the HRT is gonna help a lot but the bones wont change and the face wont lift itself....

Oh yea but Im gonna have him very carefully do my trach shave now so add whatever that costs to the 36K....

Havent even started with hair yet

It aint cheap being me

[GoneGirl]

Sounds good, Eva. I, too, am looking for a surgeon to do my FFS. I've consulted with and got quotes from several plastic doctors: Leis, Spiegel, Weinzweig, Eppley, I even contacted the Facial Team in Spain.

All are in agreement with my virtual FSS by Alexandra Hamer (virtualffs.co.uk) that I need:

1. Forehead contouring & brow lift
2. Rhinoplasty (nose)
3. Lip lift/lip advancement
4. Thyroid cartilage reduction (trachea shave)
5. Lower blepharoplasty (bags under the eyes)
6. SMAS face and neck skin tightening
7. Fat graft to both cheeks

My jaw is already in the female range, so nothing needed there.

Quotes are all in the $40 - $50K range.

I didn't consider Dr. Z (Zukowski) even though he's in Chicago because he does not do the extensive forehead work that I need. He is not a certified craniofacial surgeon and will only grind off excess bone (endoscopically) on the brow ridge (bossing). I need more reduction than that can deliver. The bone over the frontal sinus cavity is only 2-3mm thick, so burring down my Neanderthal forehead in that area won't do. Instead, the anterior wall of the frontal sinus has to be cut out and reset further back. I only found two surgeons in the states who are willing to do that: Spiegel (Boston) and Eppley (Indianapolis). I've tentatively decided to go with Spiegel. I met him at SCC and he came across as both competent and caring. He's probably at this time the most experienced facial feminization surgeon in the US now that Dr. Ousterhout has retired.

I'm targeting for April to have my surgery done because by then, my face and neck will be pretty much cleared of hair, and the elasticity in my scalp will have returned to normal after my recent hair transplant. That will give me a couple months for all the swelling to go down before next summer. Then, in September I'll be ready for my second FUT hair transplant which will establish my new feminine hairline. By 2016, I should look as good as Sammie...tee hee.

Hugs,
Clara

[EvaMarie]

Good luck Clara, Id definitely consider Dr Speigel, Im sure he aint cheap...

Im going with Dr Z because I like him and he's near my Mom and a friend who will help me through what sounds like a brutal recovery...

He also has me sold on his endoscopic techniques... The potential for nerve damage, especially around the scars an open technique will leave is just too risky for me... Especially in areas where there is still precious hair left on me... He says anytime you put an incision in a hair bearing area you risk hair loss there... Im glad I havent done transplants yet because Id hate to risk disrupting the blood supply to all the new hairs that are definitely in limited supply for me... Its gonna take a miracle to restore my hair, cant risk losing any hair at all...

His pricing is cheaper than the doc out in Beverly Hills too

[GoneGirl]

The endoscopic approach is nice if it will accomplish what you need done, Eva. Unfortunately, for me it won't. Basically, all Dr. Z can do is burr away some of the solid bone above the orbits (eye sockets). Maybe a little bit of smoothing on the forehead, if needed.

About 90% of MTF transsexuals need some forehead reconstruction, not just de-bossing. Without it, the forehead is not feminine in appearance.

Nerve damage is not much of a risk. Yes, there's some lingering numbness for a couple of months, but it goes away.

Aren't you going to have a brow lift, Eva? If you are, that's going to require an incision the width of your forehead (at or above the hairline) anyway.

[EvaMarie]

Ask the doctor about the built in risks of complications regardless of who the surgeon is... There is no way to avoid cutting nerves with the open procedure and there is a risk of permanent numbness of the scalp... Problems with circulation and even tissue death... Also I was told there is a 30% complication rate, permanent sinus problems with the "type 3" procedure... There are risks involving just the way your face animates... There is a risk that the hardware involved with the sinus reconstruction can cause scaring under the skin and cause an un natural look... Im just saying this is a all real concern and not just some pitch from a surgeon that cant or wont do the highly invasive "type three work"... Im sure doctors with as much experience as Zukowski and Mayer could do that kind of work... I believe they dont do it because its a truly risky proposition... A Dr is bound by the Hippocratic oath to "do no harm"... A lot of these TS surgeries take that oath out to the limit...

I totally get what your saying though and I have a pretty masculine brow myself... For me the risks just arent worth it though...

That Dr Z is not a maxillo facial surgeon is not really a concern for me but then again Im not doing what your looking to do...

Its all scary as hell to me sis!!!!

[GoneGirl]

I understand your fears, Eva. I've read all about the possible complications. Many surgeons focus on the risks to scare patients.

I concede that endoscopic is safer and the recovery time is shorter, but if it doesn't get rid of your masculine brow, it's probably not worth doing at all. As I mentioned, if you also want a brow lift and scalp advancement, a coronal incision is still necessary.

Nothing against Dr. Z, but, honestly, it's the only forehead recontouring procedure he's qualified to do, so of course he's going to push it as the best option. I met him at SCC. He's a great salesman.

If you do have a strong masculine brow, keep in mind that your forehead is the most important facial marker of your gender. Chances are you're not going to be happy with just de-bossing over the eyes. Any hooding or projection is still going to be present post-op leaving that 'transsexual forehead' look, not the feminine look you're hoping for.

Take a look at Dr. Z's B&A gallery of patients. Look for evidence that central forehead projection has been removed. You can't find any. He's careful to use camera angle, bangs, and lighting to hide the final forehead contour.

Considering the costs involved, I recommend having a virtual FFS assessment done first with photos photo-shopped to show what you'll look like. It's not that expensive. Alexandra Hamer will do it at Virtual FSS

Hey, just some friendly advice. It's your choice, hon. Whatever course you take, good luck.

Clara

[EvaMarie]

We'll I donno about "not worth it"... I do very well as I am "tranny brow" and all too.... I get ya but I will just take my chances and let the doc do what he can... The scar I will have is gonna be 4" shorter and it will not go into my hair at all, there is none up top for now... Im not looking for a radical change, my eyes Im told are beautiful and one of my best features... I agree but the brows are sagging due to age though and I think Id really benefit from even minimal burring and a brow lift... I dont do this shit for anyone but ME... Im the one that will live with me, I dont expect it to "give me a feminine look" I think that comes largely from within "masculine" features or not... Of course I want them gone or greatly reduced though and Im sure it will help... But really there is a limit to what they can do and there are some pretty weird looking girls out there... Keep that in mind too

My Mom and Sis both look a lot like me, and I already "have their eyes"... They both also have prominent brows and nobody would ever doubt their women... Now that Ive seen my mother in person she is even more supportive of me... I dont think she will have a problem giving me some pics of her when she was young... She says I "look just like my sis" but I say I look just her about 40 years ago Im just getting started with this and there will be a much more in depth consultation in the months ahead...

I know what I want done, the virtual FFS looks neat though but I doubt it would change my mind on any of it...

I like the fact the Dr Z really seems to genuinely want me informed on all this... I didnt get that vibe at all from Dr Mayer.... I didnt consult the others because I dont want or like the risks like I said...

"Salesman" maybe but there is truth in there I think... This aint rocket science after all despite all the myths and BS out there...

I wish you the best of luck doing what you gotta do though to make YOU happy... You cant do it for anyone else but you

[EvaMarie]

OK so my voice is coming back but WOW is it BAD

Im clear to start gently talking again tomorrow... I just tried to say a few words and it sounded pretty weird...

A good thing is my sense of taste seems to be a lot better this morning...
Its real weird the way its been coming and going, but at least its getting better...

Both are supposed to be "normal" but there really is nothing normal about this whole deal!!!

Oh well one more day.... Its feeling nearly 100% now though and little grunts and groans do have a more fem sound to them anyway

[EvaMarie]

SO glad I got this done in NY and made it home before the SNOW they are getting now, 20+ inches in like 12 hours WOW

It was 65 when I was there I would have been so screwed and stressed out if I was there now!!!