[bobie]

I have noticed already its harder to get errect when i want to although still can, is masturbation a good or bad thing while on pm and sp?

The saw palmetto i had on order arrived today so i have started taking that, they reccomend 4 day (2 in the morning and 2 at night) which is 1800mg a day, does this sound about right? here the link http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?PID=5990&CPID=572

I know it was a bit pricey but at the time i didnt have much time for shopping arround

Still want to work out a cycle, any suggestions there? taking 1400mg of pm a day (2 350mg caps morning and the same in the evening)

Do i need to gradually ramp up my dosage without breaks until i see budding or can i stick on this dose on a cycle with time off

[Samantha Rogers]

Sweetheart, you need to decide what you want. If maintaining erections is important to you then I would stay away from SP. It will hasten the..."decline"
Some members have tried Maca, but that is just hearsay and unproven. Remember that herbs are just another form of HRT. You will most certainly have growing (no pun intended) trouble with erections if you continue with PM. Just the facts. Sorry.

Hugs

Sammie

[bobie]

I can deal with not being able to get an erection while taking pm if i know that regular breaks with cycling will safeguard future function when i come off the stuff onto a maintainance dose, i will probably want to take some extended breaks every now and then anyway so check things are all ok with my mens bits, i guess i should work out a cycle and see how it goes, if i dont like whats happening i can just stay off the stuff, just have no idea how long i should be on pm and then how long to take off it and whether to also take a break from the sp at the same time, i could really do with understanding how the body works when it comes to hormones a lot more than i do now, i thought that once the bodys oestrogen level reaches a certain point the testicles stop producing testosterone anyway? and if that happens then theres no testosterone to convert into dht anyway right? so why is sp needed?

[GoneGirl]

i thought that once the bodys oestrogen level reaches a certain point the testicles stop producing testosterone anyway? and if that happens then theres no testosterone to convert into dht anyway right? so why is sp needed?

You're partially correct. If you take just PM and no anti-androgen (AA), your total testosterone will fall dramatically, but certainly not to zero. Mine dropped to well below the male reference range (normal range for men) just using PM, but that still leaves plenty of T to go around.

The pituitary gland puts out luteinizing hormone (LH) when the amount of free T drops below what a man's body thinks it needs. This tells the testes to produce more T. If your free T level is good, the LH output is reduced, and the testes produce less T.

What's so interesting is that the pituitary gland can't distinguish between free T and estrogen (or the phyto-estrogen miroestrol from PM). That's why PM not only provides the estrogenic effect needed for breast growth, but also drives down your total T as though it were an anti-androgen. Follow so far?

So you're right. You don't need an anti-androgen, like SP, to grow breasts. But, because PM also causes a drop in T production, you are likely to lose your sex drive, spontaneous erections, etc.

Of course, your free T is likely to remain above that of a genetic female when taking PM alone, and some of that T will be converted into the very strong masculinizing form of T called DHT. Think muscles and body hair. Many of us girls HATE body hair with a passion and want no part of it. So we take an anti-androgen to impede the action of the enzyme, five-alpha reductace, which converts free T into DHT.

If you want to feminize your body beyond breast growth, you'll have to lower your DHT much more than PM can all by itself. That means taking an AA like Pygeum, Chinese skull cap, or White Peony which block the action of 5ar.

Many of us have turned away from SP as being comparatively ineffective as an AA, and even counter productive in producing breast growth.

Be sure to read this FAQ post: Frequently used supplements

Clara

[bobie]

Thanks i follow you and with you on the hating of hair (just finished epilating!), i bought the sp after reading that dht ibhibits breast growth and also some of the other side effects of dht (enlarged prostate, baldness etc), shame i have opened it and started taking them really otherwise could have returned them or sold them on, maybe just drop down to a low dose of one a day until they are gone? will have a think about it and do some more research

[bobie]

Having seen the flat2fem program mentioned a few times i googled it and kept seeing it for sale at $37 then came across a free copy which i have had a quick read of, interesting their pm program uses only 500-1000 mg of pm yet 1800-3600 mg of sp and also progesterone cream, should i add progesterone cream to my routine?

In terms of a cycle was wondering about 21 days on 7 days off, how does this sound?

[GoneGirl]

Having seen the flat2fem program mentioned a few times i googled it and kept seeing it for sale at $37 then came across a free copy which i have had a quick read of, interesting their pm program uses only 500-1000 mg of pm yet 1800-3600 mg of sp and also progesterone cream, should i add progesterone cream to my routine?

In terms of a cycle was wondering about 21 days on 7 days off, how does this sound?

I've had success with 3 weeks on and 1 week off. I was always able to restore my male function toward the end of each break. I have to admit, however, that the motivation to take these breaks has been waning, so be careful. The way you feel about things does change as your body and mind become adapted to a higher estrogen level.

I would not bother with the PC at this point. Again, PC could be counter productive. Many use it to counter excess estrogen in their system (estrogen dominance). Some find it has some value once growth stalls on just PM, or to fill out their already formed breasts for a rounder appearance.

Until you find that PM is just not working for you, I would just stay on PM (2000 - 2500 mg) for a few months. Why spend a lot of money on a more complex program if you don't have to? See how your body reacts to PM first. If you have a supply of SP, go ahead and use it up.

Just my opinion, of course. I like the K.I.S.S. approach.

Clara

[bobie]

Thanks clara, Yes i have noticed already that feelings towards things change so im going to have to try and make myself do it (somehow, write a note maybe lol), i had wondered about using the pc on my weeks off and only then, keep in mind im not looking to make a full transition here and want to keep my male bits working longer term so im trying to find that balance, with regard to the sp i didnt bother with it today, i dont feel the need to use it up particularly if its not needed and could be counter productive (lower oestrogen levels) but i do need to keep dht in check, another fine line as i need to retain my strength as i work in construction so lots of heavy lifting, being a vegitarian my diet isnt the best, i take a decent multi vitamin that covers most things and omega 3's but having given up coffee (i think i will cave in at the weekends to a nice strong coffee each day so two cups week) im no longer drinking any milk (never have been able to drink it on its own) so i wont be getting the amount of calcium i need now so i will need to supplement that, is there anything else i should consider? im on 1400mg a day of pm only at the moment (2 350 caps morning and evening and a pm cream rubbed in at the same time) and was going to run with that for a cycle to see how i feel, see if theres any change etc before ramping it up, i have however noticed that come a certain time each day (about 5 hours after my morning dose) my right testicle has a dull ache, done it the last couple of days, so i was wondering do i need to be spreading my dose out during the day more or is it likely to be something else?

[GoneGirl]

Your approach sounds pretty good, Bobie. I do have a couple of comments:

First, next time you order PM, consider buying Ainterol R1 if you can get it. Not all PM is the same. Ainterol R1 seems to be of consistent high quality. Remember it is not regulated by any government agency.

The testicle ache is sometimes an early side effect of taking PM, it should disappear over time.

DHT is metabolized from free T by an enzyme called 5-alpha reductace. PM will lower your free T which should make less available to convert to DHT. Let me say from personal experience that when I started taking PM, my scalp hair started to grow back, a clear sign that my DHT level had dropped. I also noticed over several months time that my muscular strength diminished by 10% or so (a purely subjective estimate). PM alone, did nothing to reduce my body hair, unfortunately, so I'm now attacking DHT more aggressively. That is cutting into my muscular strength even more and reducing my stamina despite daily exercise. It is much harder to build muscle without adequate DHT available. If that is going to be a problem for you in your work, you may have to fore go big reductions in your T levels. Just a thought and a caution.

We do have to make compromises when fulfilling a desire to be more feminine.

Hugs,

Clara

[bobie]

Thanks clara, the reason i went with the brand of pm i did (purafem) besides seemingly being good quality and having a good reputation i can also get it in the uk, it was delivered next day as i recall and delivery was free, yet to find a uk source of Ainterol (although have seen it in europe), i also kinda like 350mg caps as i can tweek the dose without such large jumps, not ruling out Ainterol mind but i want to see if purafem works before i go switching, a combination of the two could be something i do longer term, impulsively i bought some pc before your reply as i found it at what i thought was a good price http://www.ukhealthspot.co.uk/source-naturals-progesterone-cream-natural-2-oz?language=en¤cy=GBP having done more reading up on pc it seems a good choice for what i want it for