[Samantha Rogers]

Dr McHugh chooses to substitute his prejudices for science. His argument is pure reductionism. It's entirely possible that many TS had bad outcomes...thirty years ago and even today, but that is not proof that TS is a disorder. One would expect that people who have struggled with their gender identity for a lifetime would have higher rates of depression and suicide throughout their life. Sex change operations may resolve the immediate dismorphic state, but the psychic wounds may never fully heel.

One might reasonably want to compare the outcomes for people who , lived a lifetime of GID with those growing up today in households that embrace and support their transgendered child.

And throwing in Chelsea Manning ...a cheap attempt to discredit by association.

Dr. McHugh can cling to his outmoded ideas, and he can claim authority, but the truth is that the rest of the world is moving on, leaving his flat earth view behind.

We need a "like" button on here, Kim...

[flamesabers]

A most apt likeness, comparing McHugh to a "Flat Earther" Clinging to a old "popular belief" in-spite of a mountain of hard proof to the contrary.
(A Classic childish "I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and wearing a blindfold so I cant see or hear anything different than my own ideas" [whilst sticking their tongue out] mentality).

Perhaps in the interest of playing devil's advocate, I don't think gender identity and astronomy are comparable to each other in regards to being falsifiable. Gender identity is an abstract concept that can vary across societies, generations and even an individual's perception of gender can change as he/she gets older. In contrast, the assertion that the Earth is a sphere and not flat can easily be proven without even venturing into space.

What do you think would be an easier assignment? Convincing people from a mixture of different societies that you're transgender? Or convincing them that despite the appearance the earth is flat, the earth is really a sphere?

[MissC]

Oh, there's always work piled up when one returns from vacation!

If I start eviscerating your feeble rhetoric again,

Oh dear, I seem to have missed that. Got a link?

justification for a rant complaining against government funding of medical services for people's TS issues, whereas the source of funding is not I think even mentioned by the OP nor is the propriety of government funding, although such funding is mentioned in passing, any actual part of the thesis of the article.

Actually, the original op-ed piece posted by the OP was printed in response -- directly -- to the idea that government would no longer deny funding to exactly that... so I'm not sure what's irrelevant there.

His argument is pure reductionism.

In some circles, we call that "math". He's talking about numbers, and numbers don't lie. It doesn't mean we will always consider mathematics to always back what we feel is the moral argument. In other words, the right thing to do is not always mathematically correct, and vice-versa. But it is nevertheless a legitimate argument, in places where minds still inquire.

One would expect that people who have struggled with their gender identity for a lifetime would have higher rates of depression and suicide throughout their life. Sex change operations may resolve the immediate dismorphic state, but the psychic wounds may never fully heel.

Which directly makes his point: that taxpayer-funding of SRS would not make an impact on the suicide rate. The suicide rate is the reason supporters of tax-funded SRS give for supporting it. If there is to be no impact on suicide rate, then, ipso facto, there's no argument to support tax-funded SRS.

Just what is it you're disagreeing with, then?

[MissC]

Perhaps in the interest of playing devil's advocate, I don't think gender identity and astronomy are comparable to each other in regards to being falsifiable. Gender identity is an abstract concept that can vary across societies, generations and even an individual's perception of gender can change as he/she gets older. In contrast, the assertion that the Earth is a sphere and not flat can easily be proven without even venturing into space.

So... you killed the thread... for nearly a month!

Gosh darn it, nothing kills a conversation faster than saying something scientifically unassailable!

--------------------

Thread in general--

Maybe this will shed a little light on the topic of this thread:

Eli Pariser: Beware online "filter bubbles"

Maybe it's time for some to realize that, for all the politically-correct baloney around here, not much of it seeps into the mainstream. The opinions of small minorities are not forced upon the rest. And you should be thankful for that, for 5 million other special-interest minorities could do the same to you.

[flamesabers]

Perhaps in the interest of playing devil's advocate, I don't think gender identity and astronomy are comparable to each other in regards to being falsifiable. Gender identity is an abstract concept that can vary across societies, generations and even an individual's perception of gender can change as he/she gets older. In contrast, the assertion that the Earth is a sphere and not flat can easily be proven without even venturing into space.

So... you killed the thread... for nearly a month!

Gosh darn it, nothing kills a conversation faster than saying something scientifically unassailable!

I killed the thread? I thought it just ran out of steam like most threads do.

I assume you're being facetious about my saying something scientifically unassailable. Am I correct?

Thread in general--

Maybe this will shed a little light on the topic of this thread:

Eli Pariser: Beware online "filter bubbles"

Maybe it's time for some to realize that, for all the politically-correct baloney around here, not much of it seeps into the mainstream. The opinions of small minorities are not forced upon the rest. And you should be thankful for that, for 5 million other special-interest minorities could do the same to you.

The filter bubble video I think presents a rather creepy and disturbing form of censorship. Censorship in of itself is bad, but I find it all the more troubling when it is done "for our own good."

[❇ Abby ❇]

Oh. My. God. Other people have different opinions than you. How dare they! They don't agree with me, we must murder them!

I don't see one thing from you or anyone else thus far in this thread that factually refutes what he's got to say. I am an empirical and scientific thinker. I do not operate on wishes and feelings. If you want to convince people like me, you'd best try to come up with some facts that will bear out repeated experiment. Until then, you're just a whiner. Sorry.

You want facts? But first a little bit about Paul McHugh.

Dan Karasic, MD, Board of Directors, WPATH, response to psychiatrist Paul McHugh article in the Wall Street Journal.
World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)

McHugh seems unaware of the work in transgender health in these last 30 years that led to this reversal by HHS.

McHugh does cite one study from 2011, by Cecilia Dhejne, MD and colleagues at Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. However, he misunderstands Dr. Dhejne’s work. In the paper, Dr. Dhejne states that the study was not designed to draw conclusions on the efficacy of transgender surgeries, yet McHugh does exactly that. A closer reading of the paper shows that the increased mortality is in those who had surgery before 1989, and that mortality in trans people after 1989 is not statistically different from the general population.

Cristan Williams, Executive Director of the Transgender Foundation of America.
World’s experts condemn the McHugh hoax.

McHugh purposefully misrepresented the research he cited in his article, misleading WSJ readers and the wider population

Mari Brighe, TransAdvocate.
Clinging to a dangerous past: Dr Paul McHugh’s selective reading of transgender medical literature.

His view of gender dysphoria as a psychological disturbance has been consigned to the wastebasket of medical history, much like hysteria, lunacy, and the disease view of homosexuality. However, it appears that McHugh’s ultimate goal here is to derail the ongoing press for transgender rights and equality by asserting that we’re all mentally ill, and hoping that his medical credentials will lend weight to that assertion. His reprehensible, dishonest misapplication of the current medical research to further his own political agenda is despicable, and it’s shameful that the Wall Street Journal would such a piece.

It is important to remember that the opinions of Dr McHugh fly in the face of currently accepted medical practice and the positions of many major medical associations. The American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, the American Psychiatric Society, the American Public Health Association, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health have all adopted positions supporting the medical necessity of transition-related care, including hormonal and surgical interventions, as well as expressing support for insurance coverage of these interventions. Despite his authoritative sounding title at a respected medical institution, Dr McHugh’s opinions do not represent the views of the mainstream medical establishment, rather they are the erroneous, bigoted beliefs of a scientist who appears far too invested in his own antiquated, disproven theories and his anti-LGBT political position than the current state of medical affairs.

So here are some facts for you.



Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism.
Human Molecular Genetics Laboratory, Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Melbourne, Australia.

A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p = .04)

This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor.

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism.
Department of Neurology, UCLA School of Medicine, Los Angeles, CA 90095-7334, USA.

MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

Sex differences in verbal fluency during adolescence: a functional magnetic resonance imaging study in gender dysphoric and control boys and girls.
VU University Medical Center, Amsterdam, the Netherlands

The better performance of MtFs is consistent with our expectation that MtFs perform better on female-favoring tasks. Moreover, they produced more words than girls and FtMs. Even though a trendwise linear increase in brain activity between the four groups only approached significance, it may indicate differences in individuals with gender identity disorder compared to their birth sex.

Sexual differentiation of the brain and behavior.
Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, Meibergdreef 47, 1105 BA Amsterdam ZO, The Netherlands

During the intrauterine period the human brain develops in the male direction via direct action of a boy's testosterone, and in the female direction through the absence of this hormone in a girl. During this time, gender identity (the feeling of being a man or a woman), sexual orientation, and other behaviors are programmed. As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes places in the first 2 months of pregnancy, and sexual differentiation of the brain starts during the second half of pregnancy, these two processes may be influenced independently of each other, resulting in transsexuality. This also means that in the case of an ambiguous gender at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the same degree of masculinization of the brain. Differences in brain structures and brain functions have been found that are related to sexual orientation and gender.

The microstructure of white matter in male to female transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A DTI study.
Departamento de Psicobiología, UNED, C/ Juan del Rosal 10, 28040 Madrid, Spain

Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated MtF transsexuals falls halfway between the pattern of male and female controls. The nature of these differences suggests that some fasciculi do not complete the masculinization process in MtF transsexuals during brain development.

Finger Length Ratios in Serbian Transsexuals.
Clinic for Endocrinology, Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases, Clinical Centre of Serbia, Faculty of Medicine, University of Belgrade, Dr Subotića 13, 11000 Belgrade, Serbia

Transsexualism in humans is biological in origin. Our findings support a biological etiology of MFT implicating decreased prenatal androgen exposure in MFT. 2D : 4D could be potentially used as a marker for prenatal androgen exposure.

He is absolutely right to use the specter of solipsism here. It's all "me me me, my feelings," isn't it?

No. It's not.
Solipsism is not correct as the above evidence show with research and science that there are measurable physical differences in MtF transsexuals and if that's not enough factual scientific proof then there are many more scientific research papers.



This is the study Paul McHugh cited "The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population.".

The study does not support this view from !989 - 2003.

Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden.
Cecilia Dhejne, MD and colleagues at Karolinska Institute in Stockholm.

Even though the overall mortality was increased across both time periods, it did not reach statistical significance for the period 1989–2003

It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.[39,40] This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.

Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment,[11,41] and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome. Second, transsexualism is a rare condition and Sweden is a small country (9.2 million inhabitants in 2008). Hence, despite being based on a comparatively large national cohort and long-term follow-up, the statistical power was limited.

Denita