10-10-2014, 03:22 PM
10-10-2014, 05:52 PM
Thanks, Sammie. Thought provoking. When does TS body dysphoria end and regular wanting to be beautiful begin?
Clara
Clara
10-10-2014, 06:44 PM
True, Clara, but I think what he was getting at was more the general societal focus on appearance rather than an appreciation for the person inside. That was what I got from it, anyway...that what made him emotional was the admission of past shallow behavior in that regard and empathy for all the women of this world who face the challenge of trying to be heard, seen and appreciated despite a lack of physical beauty in the generally accepted commercial sense.
Personally, I have always found the most attractive part of any person to be what I see in their eyes.
Personally, I have always found the most attractive part of any person to be what I see in their eyes.
10-10-2014, 08:40 PM
(10-10-2014, 03:22 PM)Samantha Rogers Wrote: http://www.upworthy.com/dustin-hoffman-b...erienced-3
An interesting and unexpected reaction. I think your right about his realisation about social expectations and physical appearance.
I saw this on the same site. I thought it was incredibly well done and moving.
Ever Wonder How Life Could Change For Kids If Gender Didn't Matter? Here's A Before And After.
Break the Box, Texas Association Against Sexual Assault (TAASA) Campaign - Revised Version
Denita
This all seems to me to connect with various recent threads here which I have been pondering. Where are we trying to go in our respective transitions? I see two main philosophies, both probably equally valid but qiuite distinct, and, as always, with a spectrum in between. It was Clara's posts on FFS that made me realize that she and I are at different points on this particular spectrum. FFS is a means to be a more perfect (=beautiful?) woman than would otherwise be possible, and by being perfectly female in all visible (and a lot of other) respects to become bombproof against being 'read and able to merge into and become indistinguishable from cis-women. Forgive me, Clara, if I am seeing you in the wrong box, but I need to illustrate my thesis.
On the other hand, my primary objective is to be comfortable as the woman I am. Beauty and even 'passability' are definitely secondary. If there was one thing that Southern Comfort taught me it was to be comfortable with myself. Sure, there are discomforts outstanding to be attended to, and doubtless always will be. I would definitely like to be rid of my unwanted and very largely non-functional male equipment, and have at least superficially a more female appearance in that area, and get my legal status sorted out for my comfort. I have come out so thoroughly to my family and my community that 'passability' is largely a non-issue, particularly when most everyone knows myself and my O&O (DW doesn't fit so well these days) as an item. I am perfectly content to be one of the (vast majority of) women whom Dustin Hoffman regrets having dismissed in the past. Let's face it, by far the greater number of both women (and men) one sees around one are non-starters in the beauty stakes (even I am prepared to think that I rank better than a great many of them). And my comfort with all of this is such that I am happier now than I have ever been, at least since I was 7 years old.
But this is just my road. Yours will be different and hopefully is or shall be equally valid and satisfying.
Yes, Sammie, I agree about the eyes. Particularly smiling eyes.
Denita, 'Break the Box' is of course not just about kids. It illustrates so well what I've just done, and the rewards are unbelievable I fear I'm still a bit high, six weeks into 'full time'.
On the other hand, my primary objective is to be comfortable as the woman I am. Beauty and even 'passability' are definitely secondary. If there was one thing that Southern Comfort taught me it was to be comfortable with myself. Sure, there are discomforts outstanding to be attended to, and doubtless always will be. I would definitely like to be rid of my unwanted and very largely non-functional male equipment, and have at least superficially a more female appearance in that area, and get my legal status sorted out for my comfort. I have come out so thoroughly to my family and my community that 'passability' is largely a non-issue, particularly when most everyone knows myself and my O&O (DW doesn't fit so well these days) as an item. I am perfectly content to be one of the (vast majority of) women whom Dustin Hoffman regrets having dismissed in the past. Let's face it, by far the greater number of both women (and men) one sees around one are non-starters in the beauty stakes (even I am prepared to think that I rank better than a great many of them). And my comfort with all of this is such that I am happier now than I have ever been, at least since I was 7 years old.
But this is just my road. Yours will be different and hopefully is or shall be equally valid and satisfying.
Yes, Sammie, I agree about the eyes. Particularly smiling eyes.
Denita, 'Break the Box' is of course not just about kids. It illustrates so well what I've just done, and the rewards are unbelievable I fear I'm still a bit high, six weeks into 'full time'.
11-10-2014, 03:13 AM
Annie, I want to congratulate you on your coming out so quickly and completely. I'm very impressed. There are usually many obstacles to be overcome to do what you have done, and that usually takes time.
The attraction to physical beauty in both men and women is more than a cultural phenomenon. It's embedded in the genetics of the human species, in my opinion. The standards of beauty may vary, but not the behaviors in reaction to those standards as possessed by individuals. I'm sure it plays a role in the survival of the species.
I'd like to blame society for the injustices that I experience in life, but it doesn't get me anywhere. I envy those who can honestly detach themselves from the opinions of the people around them and attain a high level of self-acceptance. It's the Popeye attitude -- "I yam what I yam". Take it or leave it. Unfortunately, if you don't measure up to cultural standards, they too often leave it.
It takes a remarkable person to find self acceptance in the face of societal disapproval or indifference. Self love and acceptance is something I have to work at because, for me, unfortunately, it's contingent upon the approval of others. I'm sure that's part of the reason I'm a late transitioner. It's been both a blessing and a curse. A curse in that I never seem to fully reach that blissful state of mind, but also a blessing because it motivates me to stretch myself and achieve things that I wouldn't have otherwise achieved.
Ultimately, my goal is the same as yours, Annie, -- to be comfortable as the woman I am. To get there I have to meet the standards that I set for myself. As a transsexual I possess a certain amount of body dysphoria that arises from a mismatch between my body and my internal female self-image. You're right, it isn't really about passing or achieving some standard of beauty. I already pass pretty well even at this early stage of my transition. And I'll never be beautiful as a woman. I would like to attain an appearance that I'm pleased with when I look in the mirror, though. I'm not quite there yet.
Achieving that level of self-acceptance is everyone's goal whether or not they are able to achieve it. It is, in my opinion, the measure of a successful transition. It's different for every individual whether trans or cis.
Accepting my transgenderism was a huge step toward achieving self-love, self-acceptance, and the mental peace that comes with it. But, it's not enough. I now have to become the woman that I am in a real-world sense. It's not easy for me because I've never set easy to reach goals for myself in life. I would love to be as comfortable with myself as you are, Annie. At SCC, I could tell right away that you were much more at ease with your first public interaction as a transwoman than I ever expected. It's wonderful.
Clara
The attraction to physical beauty in both men and women is more than a cultural phenomenon. It's embedded in the genetics of the human species, in my opinion. The standards of beauty may vary, but not the behaviors in reaction to those standards as possessed by individuals. I'm sure it plays a role in the survival of the species.
I'd like to blame society for the injustices that I experience in life, but it doesn't get me anywhere. I envy those who can honestly detach themselves from the opinions of the people around them and attain a high level of self-acceptance. It's the Popeye attitude -- "I yam what I yam". Take it or leave it. Unfortunately, if you don't measure up to cultural standards, they too often leave it.
It takes a remarkable person to find self acceptance in the face of societal disapproval or indifference. Self love and acceptance is something I have to work at because, for me, unfortunately, it's contingent upon the approval of others. I'm sure that's part of the reason I'm a late transitioner. It's been both a blessing and a curse. A curse in that I never seem to fully reach that blissful state of mind, but also a blessing because it motivates me to stretch myself and achieve things that I wouldn't have otherwise achieved.
Ultimately, my goal is the same as yours, Annie, -- to be comfortable as the woman I am. To get there I have to meet the standards that I set for myself. As a transsexual I possess a certain amount of body dysphoria that arises from a mismatch between my body and my internal female self-image. You're right, it isn't really about passing or achieving some standard of beauty. I already pass pretty well even at this early stage of my transition. And I'll never be beautiful as a woman. I would like to attain an appearance that I'm pleased with when I look in the mirror, though. I'm not quite there yet.
Achieving that level of self-acceptance is everyone's goal whether or not they are able to achieve it. It is, in my opinion, the measure of a successful transition. It's different for every individual whether trans or cis.
Accepting my transgenderism was a huge step toward achieving self-love, self-acceptance, and the mental peace that comes with it. But, it's not enough. I now have to become the woman that I am in a real-world sense. It's not easy for me because I've never set easy to reach goals for myself in life. I would love to be as comfortable with myself as you are, Annie. At SCC, I could tell right away that you were much more at ease with your first public interaction as a transwoman than I ever expected. It's wonderful.
Clara
11-10-2014, 09:24 AM
In one case, one feels "she" HAS to pass, mostly in order to keep from being beaten up or otherwise harmed (I once had some punkers try to set me on fire by throwing beer on me and then a lit match) by those of VERY simple minds about us who just REFUSE to understand, and THAT becomes a self-inflected prison cell but ONLY as a means of safety...as in: to be locked up in prison to keep oneself devoid of harm by others, NOT because said "inmate" did something wrong.
In another case, "she" feels she HAS to pass just because she PRFERS to be as much a woman as "she" can POSSIBLY be!! It's like the Christopher Reeves movie, "Somewhere In Time", where: as long as he removes ALL reminders of the present life he's in, he can EASILY and VERY comfortably stay back in time, where he PRFERS to be, but as SOON as he sees even the SLIGHTEST reminder of his real present, in the case of the movie, a penny in his pocket from the mid `80's, he is IMMEDIATELY snapped back to the real present, like a gum band that was stretched out as far as it could go and is suddenly let go to become it's normally relaxed state. Think of his STRONG desire to be in the early 1900's as an equally strong desire to be a woman, perfectly so in EVERY way!! Then think of that penny as, say, him discovering a single facial hair! Suddenly he realizes it's an illusion and it crashes to the ground, at least until it can be manufactured again. (I was about to disclose the end of the movie, but I thought I'd better not, just in case someone here might want to see it, I wouldn't want to spoil it for them.)
And, in some cases, you JUST want be comfortable in who you really are and passing 100% doesn't matter at all. Or, at least you want others to recognize you as who you really are inside, no matter if you pass or not.
I'm REALLY tired, I think I can hear my bed calling me, so I MAY have missed a point, but, do any of you agree with any of this? Does it sound plausible (for lack of the correct word)?
In another case, "she" feels she HAS to pass just because she PRFERS to be as much a woman as "she" can POSSIBLY be!! It's like the Christopher Reeves movie, "Somewhere In Time", where: as long as he removes ALL reminders of the present life he's in, he can EASILY and VERY comfortably stay back in time, where he PRFERS to be, but as SOON as he sees even the SLIGHTEST reminder of his real present, in the case of the movie, a penny in his pocket from the mid `80's, he is IMMEDIATELY snapped back to the real present, like a gum band that was stretched out as far as it could go and is suddenly let go to become it's normally relaxed state. Think of his STRONG desire to be in the early 1900's as an equally strong desire to be a woman, perfectly so in EVERY way!! Then think of that penny as, say, him discovering a single facial hair! Suddenly he realizes it's an illusion and it crashes to the ground, at least until it can be manufactured again. (I was about to disclose the end of the movie, but I thought I'd better not, just in case someone here might want to see it, I wouldn't want to spoil it for them.)
And, in some cases, you JUST want be comfortable in who you really are and passing 100% doesn't matter at all. Or, at least you want others to recognize you as who you really are inside, no matter if you pass or not.
I'm REALLY tired, I think I can hear my bed calling me, so I MAY have missed a point, but, do any of you agree with any of this? Does it sound plausible (for lack of the correct word)?
Yes, MM, you pretty much covered it. I think most of us want to physically resemble the woman we image ourselves to be inside. It's evidenced by the efforts we take to appear feminine despite huge obstacles. I know some who make no such effort, also. From one month to the next there's no noticeable change in their presentation despite opportunity for improvement. One CD won a facial makeover in a raffle a while back. She has yet to use it. Probably never will because it's not important to her to be more convincing in her presentation. We're all unique in what motivates us.
Clara
Clara
11-10-2014, 10:57 PM
Clara - I am not immune to the 'look good' bug myself. I look at my irregular teeth, what's left of them, and some expensive dental work is definitely somewhere in my priority list. In Britain there was never in my day the same importance attached to achieving regular looking teeth. I did have some orthodontic work done, but when the specialist moved to London and 'went private' and we moved when I was 13, it fell by the wayside. Given my age, my greatest enemy is now time, I'm in a hurry, and I don't wish to spend too much of what I have left on lengthy or very expensive treatments to improve my looks to the maximum possible, provided that I can be happy: but I'm certainly willing to pursue any limited work that promises good returns on the time and money invested.
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