[υαlεƦιε]

I'm taking rc capsules with about 600mg of isolated isoflavones, hoping to distribute fat in the safe areas, hips, thighs, rear and breast growth. Will rc isolavones do anything at that dosage and has any breast growth been reported on rc?

Some background and observations:
The first few days of taking rc I noticed that my face was slightly flushed, felt some nausea and what I can only describe as butterflies in stomach. I felt different overall. After a week my sex drive has increased, skin softened up, nipples and surrounding breast area are more sensitive to touch and temperature. Before this I took lower doses and developed stretch marks on my lower butt to the sides, there's more fat around that general area.

[flamesabers]

Hello.

While a number of members (including myself) have used red clover at some time or another, I think it's rather uncommon for red clover to be used as the primary herb for NBE. My thoughts on red clover is it's a weaker herb than something like pm. Perhaps after a few weeks you'll be able to gauge how effective red clover is for you?

[The First Aria]

RC is one of the main staples for Flat 2 Fem program. It works, but at a snails pace when it's combined with the regular SP, Hops or wild yam capsules.

[υαlεƦιε]

I've upped the dose to 900mg, so far its going well, I may increase to 1200mg but I'm thinking it might be more effective if I stay at 900 and just take some SP alongside.

PM definitely appears to be the most potent and effective herb on the market. Its something that i may try at some point. Although the great thing about these RC caps that I've picked up is that they have a really high isoflavone content. I hope its high strength is enough to cause some observable changes specifically in the area of fat redistribution. I'm really optimistic that it will.

The regular RC caps that I've seen for sale in stores seem to contain around 300mg of powdered blossoms, with no added isoflavone content, promensil (OTC menstruation tabs) contains 40mg of isoflavones, these I would say are stronger that the 300mg caps, what I'm taking is 900mg of RC isoflavone extract plus 1350mg of powder blossoms. That's a huge difference in potency.

I've read that next to PM, RC is one of the highest sources of phytoestrogens, so I do wonder why it wouldn't be effective at the right dosage?

[Lotus]

I wouldn't stop using the RC just yet, it up-regulates progesterone receptors, also a slight aromatase booster. Vitex is another strong performer at estrogen receptor alpha or ER-a for short (that's the growth receptor, PM has more affinity for estrogen receptor beta or ER-b, that's the protective receptor, rhubarb looks like the strongest performer, pharma E2 still needs help at receptor alpha, an aromatase would be of benefit.

Steroid synthesis in intratumoral stromal and carcinoma cells and the potential sites at which flavones and isoflavones may inhibit the production of biologically active oestrogens. Androgens taken up by carcinoma cells include androstenedione and DHEA, the latter of which is converted to androstenedione by 3β-HSD1. Androstenedione is converted to oestrone by aromatase. Oestrone sulphate is converted to oestradiol by ETS and 17β-HSD.ETS, oestrogen sulfatase; EST, oestrogen sulfotransferase/SULT1E1; HSD, hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase.

Basically, it's stating flavones are anti-aromatase, while red clover is the on switch between 17 beta HSD and ER-a (estrogen receptor alpha, the growth receptor).

[υαlεƦιε]

Very informative post, thank you so much.

What sort of feminizing effects are common with alpha receptor binding herbs such as RC?

Since PM affects the beta site, what sort of difference will we see in effects as compared to the alpha site?

[Lotus]

Very informative post, thank you so much.

What sort of feminizing effects are common with alpha receptor binding herbs such as RC?

Since PM affects the beta site, what sort of difference will we see in effects as compared to the alpha site?

I recently posted this in another thread, but I think it relates so I'll share it here if that's ok.

The health benefits of phyto's are well documented (especially here). These intracellular pathways are very interesting to say the least. That fact that someone did these kinds of studies blows me away lol. The estrogen receptor bioavailability chart I listed on another thread ties into these two studies. Put them all together and you get the sense of a reality check of sorts on NBE. The takeaway is that this info explains why we have slow, or no growth at all for some. Plus, I would even go as far to say the same holds true for HRT, and that glaring fact was E2 wasn't strong at binding to ER-a (the growth receptor). Which explains why HRT is slow going too, which if I did HRT I'd add these things below, that's just my opinion though. Estradiol (E2) doesn't all get bound to the estrogen receptors. Consider this though, increased levels of phyto's block out the body's own "natural estrogens", I'd say that's something you can ill afford when trying to grow breasts.


I think the obvious choice is to balance herbs that are PRO-ER-a with ER-b (protective receptor). Turmeric, green tea, essential fatty acids, and certain phtyoestrogens. 5 ar inhibitors are still a viable choice, reishi binds to ER's, not sure which one yet. WP is still a good choice. New weapons are things like 17 beta HSD's, type 1 & 4, plus CYP19 is still a viable option considering the andro to estro pathway,(that backdoor pathway is yet to be tapped).


cAMP or cyclic adenosine monophosphate is another possible NBE tool. Imo cAMP ties into fatty acids, or in large part how cAMP delivers FA's to hormones. In other words increasing blood flow to the receptors increase their bioavailability. Forilskin comes to mind, but quite honestly I think fatty acids work quite the same way.

cAMP is a second messenger important in many biological processes. cAMP is derived from adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and used for intracellular signal transduction in many different organisms, conveying the cAMP-dependent pathway.

cAMP is a second messenger, used for intracellular signal transduction, such as transferring the effects of hormones like glucagon and adrenaline, which cannot get through the cell membrane. Its purposes include the activation of protein kinases and regulating the effects of adrenaline and glucagon. It is also used to regulate the passage of Ca2+ through ion channels.

cyclic adenosine monophosphate
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Cyclic_...ophosphate

-----------------------------

Bottom line- low dose esstential fatty acids (eg-EPO) 2000 mg and 2000 mg omega 3's, coconut oil 2000 mg will have a big effect on ER-a bioavailability over straight use of phytoestrogens. And for more depth, RC, Vitex, Hops all have an ER-alpha affinity. Balance with turmeric, green tea, progesterone, WP, reishi and boobie friendly foods that's been shared and its a solid program.

Massage, yoga, walking, hydration, etc are needed too. Remember, not everyone carries the same growth genes (DNA) for breast growth, meaning some are more sensitive to ER-a's over others. But!!!!, you absolutely "DO NOT" want to put yourself at risk with crazy herb dosages. If you've spent all this time and money on growing those boobs then why wouldn't you want an insurance policy ( eg-protective measures against breast cancer[tumeric,green tea]) which can even happen with
phytoestrogens, (always proceed with caution).

Research research, get all the facts, weigh all the options and then make an informed decision on an NBE program. 95% of that info is already here in the NBE archives, yup!, you gotta read it. And as always check with your primary care Doc.

[υαlεƦιε]

Sure that's fine, I'm totally interested in the knowledge behind how some of these herbs work on our bodies. Very useful information here, thanks for sharing

I should probably look into supplementing with those herbs you mentioned, specifically the ones that affect the beta site.. Might look into turmeric as its readily available.

I've read that soy isoflavones can interfere with thyroid function, researching further I can't find anything specifically mentioning this with RC isoflavones, just with the soy. Is there any risk of this happening with RC's isoflavones?

Edit: I've looked at different turmeric supplements and have found that there are two forms; straight turmeric powder capsules and curcumin extract capsules, which of these would be more effective for our use?

[Lotus]

It's all related quite honestly, I mean, if you tie up the liver or stress it out with an over-abundance of toxins it won't process estrogen correctly. When that happens estrogens gets re-absorbed and has the potential to produce the unhealthy estrogen metabolites known as 16-a OH estrone and 2 OH estrone (e.g. cancer causing estrogen metabolites). And if that's not bad enough, the excess estrogen in our liver (which is all ER-alpha) impairs the thyroid to produce more thyroid hormone. A blood protein called albumin carries hormones in the blood, RC is said to stabilize the blood, also an antioxidant.

I think there's enough evidence that phyto's affect sperm count. Research studies can be subjective, especially if funded by special interest. Isoflavones include the metabolites genistien and daidzein as seen with PM and other phyto's. Genistien in some studies proliferates breast cancer cells. Diadzien works like an androgen. Again, ER-beta types, but it's about balance too, ER-b is protective against breast cancer proliferation, so is anti-aromatase meds. Green tea, turmeric, progesterone etc. are strong counter-measures to protect against cancer. And despite conflicting evidence phyto's are protective against cancers.

But, RC has its problems too, fertility being one, not everybody gets results from RC, or nbe, side effects are indicated with RC. If you have hypothyroidism I'd stay away from soy in general. Lower dosages are effective, taking higher amounts of supplements impair the liver, imo it ends up being wasted.

[υαlεƦιε]

I took a one month break from the rc as I was feeling light headed at times. During this time I have noticed breast formation but it could be fat, it's kind of hard to tell if its actual breast tissue. The slight bulges have formed just below the nipple and this area enlarges when massaged.

Im not sure why I was feeling light headed, although I do wonder if the caffeine from my daily coffee had something to do with it.

Would taking interrupted doses (one day on the other off) be helpful?