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Wise words ?????

#1

EDUCATIONAL
Autogynephilia
by Dianna • February 26, 2010 • Comments Off on Autogynephilia

After having visited Anne Lawrence’s web site on Autogynephilia a decade ago, and after having listened to her presentation and watching the reaction of her audience at Southern Comfort ‘99, I am compelled to write a response.

I have been an activist, mentor and counselor within the transgender community for nearly 20 years. In that time, I have had personal contact with nearly 3,000 people within the community, and electronic/internet contact with maybe 4,000 more in the past five years. Throughout this experience, I have come to understand that there is no one model of a transgendered person; there are many reasons as there are people involved. But some clear patterns have evolved.

And the clearest pattern is that for most M2F TGs – especially those who are still in the closet – there is a significant sexual aspect to being transgendered. And that aspect is significantly slanted toward male ideas and ideals of female sexuality.

The problem with debating auto gynephilia is that to deny it exists is to deny basic human sexuality. However, by refusing to separate male sexuality from M2F transgenderism/transsexuality, there is no chance of crossing the chasm to become woman. And autogynephilia justifies building a stonger link between male sexuality and M2F transgenderism, by giving that connection the power of a label, a name.

Autogynephilia may be a precursor to gender–role transtion, it may someday lead to sex reassignment surgery. But as long as the TG activities are tied to sex or sexuality, it remains a fetish.

In my counseling of Transgender people, it is clear that the majority (but not all) will go through a phase where masturbation is ultimately crucial to their transgender experience. And a clear pattern exists that when the masturbation event is concluded, the transgender event ends as well; the individual cannot seem to get the clothing, makeup and other props off of their body quickly enough.

I have often challenged transgendered people to leave the clothing and other props on after masturbation, to immediately put themselves back together, as it were, in the female mode. This is the only way I have ever found to help transgendered people begin to separate clothing from sexuality, so that they can begin to separate the concept of woman from sexuality. It is a traditional male trait to link women and sexuality, and this trait has caused several millennia of problems for women, who are thereby not seen as human beings.

Advertising has for years tended to portray women as body parts and as sexual things, rather than as humans. The experiences of a huge majority of the transgender population extends this portrayal; when individuals who profess to be a “woman trapped in a man’s body” can only be women in a sexual sense, it is no wonder that wives, girlfriends and women co-workers protest and work to push the TG away. And it is no wonder that male co-workers who might be homophobic anyway, would also work to keep the TG away from them.

No matter how carefully Anne Lawrence “cuts her cloth” about this, autogynephilia qualifies as a fetish. There are many people who are clearly tied into their own unique fetishes, and who believe that they will wither and become depressed or even die if they are not allowed to routinely practice their sexual fetish. But the workplace is not a place to practice any sexual fetish. Autogynephilia may be a precursor to gender–role transtion, it may someday lead to sex reassignment surgery. But as long as the TG activities are primarily tied to sex or sexuality, it remains a fetish.

It is not reasonable to expect or mandate that an employer allow a person to bring any other sexual fetish into the workplace; no diapers, no chains, no leather–drag, no pornography. If a workplace specificaly wants to allow and/or encourage these fetishes, that is fine; but to mandate a workplace to allow it based on city, state or Federal law is ludicrous.

As an advisor to many corporations and government entities where a TG is transitioning, I have watched in wonder at the number of M2F TGs who feel compelled to come to work dressed like a little girl or teenage slut, and then demand the professional rights women co-workers have. With this display of sexuality, its is not surprising that women object to TGs using women’s spaces.

The problem then is this:

If this is primarily a sexually driven phenomenon, then we make a grave mistake in working for civil rights laws to protect it. Over the past decade, many cities have made law that protects people regardless of gender expression. It is clearly time to re-think this, so as to cut our losses in the future. Gender Expression that is clearly a male image of women’s sexuality; gender expression that clearly says “this is my male idea of the perfect sexual woman should be”, has no place being protected behavior in the workplace. I still feel strongly that no one should be fired simply for being transgender; but there has to be a limit to what behaviors and appearances we can ask/mandate employers to protect. And that limit is on the conservative side of the sexual.

It is fascianting to me that individuals in the transgender community, even at the point of undertaking permanent physical changes, only see the importance of the sexual body parts being changed. For example, there is huge importance attached to the development of breasts, hips, softer skin, nails, makeup, hair care, voice…. All of the things men look for in finding sexual attractiveness in a woman; but there is virtually no importance given to things like facial hair – the male beard. Why is it that M2F transgenders cannot realize that virtually no one but themselves will ever see their maked breasts or genitalia? That virtually no one will ever know whether their breasts, for example, are implant, prothesis, or “home grown”? But that their face, which virtually everyone they ever walk past will see– whether they acknowledge the other person or not? It can only be that male sexuality does not “see” women’s faces except under a layer of makeup, which M2F TGs think they can duplicate.

I have wondered in amazment for more than a decade at the girls in recovery at SRS hospitals, who still are shaving a male beard, sometimes multiple times a day. But having the sexual parts of their body changed was so important to them, that they are willing to vehemently deny the necessity of beard removal. It is a dream world, full of sex and sexuality which consumes them; and it is male images and fantasies of that sexuality that are prized.

It fascinates me that people who work so hard to achieve the perfect combination of feminine beauty and sexuality, scream in objection that it is stereotyping when any discussion of female attitudes or relationships is mentioned.

No one should ever be fired for what they do on their time away from work, which does not harm others. I firmly believe that no one should lose thier job or housing, nor access to public accomodations, just because they are or are percieved to be gender different. But it is time to stop the nonsense of creating laws requiring employers to coddle the autogynephiliac fetishist and their inane portrayal of woman.

When an employer says that a transgender employee is disrupting their workplace, other employees and customers, clearly that individual is not being a woman; virtually any born-woman will go out of her way to not disrupt the other people around her. That individual is most likely being only a caricature of woman, a caricature created to please their own personal fetish.

I have seen it in the workplace far too many times – the M2F TG wearing skirts too short, breasts too large and too high on the chest, (especially for a woman of their age), makeup and hair too big and bold for their age or size. Sexuality stuff.

If an individual cannot control their sexuality and/or sexual expression in the workplace, they do not have the right to be in the workplace. This is what employers are trying to say when they bring to the table, issues of sexual harrasment and hostile workplace environment when discussing transgenders. Do born-women dress to express their sexuality in the workplace? Not if they are in management, nor manufacturing, nor accounting, nor engineering, nor in most corporate positions other than clerical. And not if they are past the age of ideal sexuality, or out-sized, as most transgenders are… n the workplace, when a M2F transgender dresses and acts separate from sexuality, there are seldom any problems around on-the-job transition.
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#2

Very interesting read.
Although, most transgender people I know just want to blend in. The beard is the first thing to go, and having breasts makes us feel whole. I have no doubt that many of us have gone through the masturbation stage, but it's hard to claim this as a fetish when it's been on my mind since before I started school, ( way before my hands even knew the pleasures of masturbating.) but, I must admit the pleasure I get now involves me looking in the mirror at Jannet, seeing the real me.
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#3

Agreed for you

It's so complex though and I still think agp starts the pandora box sometimes

Just been reading about one girl

Agp took her to transition at 19

Then at 36?ish she transitioned back to male after Srs and has never been happier and that's 3 years ago

We are indeed you a very complex bunch

Julie
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#4

Excellent post. I have actually been in a workplace that went through what you describe. There was a lot of hostility and negativity toward the attitude of the lady transitioning. Not because she was transitioning but because of her in your face attitude. It created a lot of turmoil and negative attitudes.

I believe most people would be supportive if not just tolerant if she had attempted to blend in better. The whole workplace changed for her and then she left with a "ha I changed you all" attitude. That kind of situation causes a huge amount of damage when it comes to attitudes towards TG persons.

As much as we expect people to be tolerant of us. We need to be respectful towards them. I dont believe that any of us started life wanting to be TG but we are. No one we come in contact with wants things shoved in their face either. Respect from all sides is the key.
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#5

For the most part the article was accurate enough. If you are going to transition to become a woman then act like a woman and not a rebellious teenager. Dressing appropriately in the workplace is expected from everyone.

Also Autogynephilia is a straw-man (read BS) argument in that most genetic women's fantasies involve themselves being sexual as a (wait for it) woman. If you truly feel you are a woman, fantasies of having sex as a woman is "normal."
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#6

Wendy

Yes and no

Agp theory is revamped now and an apology issued

It bases as fact

There are

Mtf homosexual transsexuals

And

Mtf Non homosexual transsexuals

Both of above get aroused by the image of themselves as female

Julie

Ps
I fall into the non homosexual group as I do not and never have thought of myself as a woman , but have deep desires to be like one
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#7

I was debating on posting this, because I'm not sure I'm going to be a regular here and I hate to rant&run. But the one line... I feel needs to be addressed.

"All of the things men look for in finding sexual attractiveness in a woman; but there is virtually no importance given to things like facial hair – the male beard"

First, just saying that makes me skeptical of her claimed experience. I have no idea how she managed to talk to over 7000 trans people and come away with the notion that "there is virtually no importance given to facial hair" - unless she did the age old trick of hearing what she was listening for instead of what was being said.

Second, I don't know of a single heterosexual man who doesn't find facial hair something of a turn-off, so clearly "hairless face" is *also* one of the things "men look for in finding sexual attractiveness in a woman." In fact, it's likely an implicit part of the 'softer skin' she'd already mentioned.

It is true that in terms of presenting and being read as a woman, electrolysis does have a higher impact than SRS or even breast growth. But it's also one of the most expensive and time consuming procedures involved in MtF transition; and one of the hardest to get medical coverage or financial assistance with.

HRT, on the other hand is one of the most effective elements for actually dealing with dysphoria. Despite the mood swings common when starting it, the neurochemical effects of estrogen have an overall soothing effect on trans women (likewise testosterone on trans men.) It also brings many of the other physical changes she mentioned (breast growth, softer skin, fat redistribution to hips&butt, sometimes improving hair and nail quality) which, while individually of lower impact than a hairless face on presentation, feels like it's addressing *more* things at once.

So when budgets (time or money) are tight, it's easier to rationalize putting off electrolysis than HRT. So maybe what she's seeing on that front isn't a case of "virtually no importance given to facial hair," but "sour grapes rationalization from people who've had to make compromises."

If she really wants to help shift that, the place to do it would be in advocating in favor of medical coverage for electrolysis :p And in opposing the employment discrimination that keeps many of us poor.

I doubt she would, though, because something in the way she phrases things makes me suspect she's more of an activist within the "gender critical radical feminist" (aka "trans-exclusive radical feminist") community than she is within the transgender community.
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#8

Thanks

LKTG

Please comment more

dont run

First its 4000,

Dianne is one of the pioneers who started selling herbs for TG folks and made a mockery of the

TS fashists who say herbs not work,

we all know they do,


So she has been working in the TG communities for approx 25 years ,

I do not agree on everything stated , but she is a wise old owl

Julie
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#9

Having read the text at the top, I think a lot of it can be explained if people think carefully about who they are talking about.

"Transgendered" relates to a lot of people most of whom are not transitioning. Drag Queens, Non-binary and cross-dressers all come under "Transgendered" yet most of them, almost all of them, are not transitioning and the biggest proportion of the transgendered population are crossdressers/transvestites.

There are estimates that around 5% of men crossdress and I have seen estimates as high as 10%, but it seems that only about 0.01% of the male population transitions. For all practical purposes transgendered = transvestite.

The main types of transvestite seem to be "dual role transvestites" and the more secretive lot for whom the sexual element is a part of it. The shrinks call them "Fetishistic Tranvestites". The original post says

Quote:.. is that for most M2F TGs – especially those who are still in the closet – there is a significant sexual aspect to being transgendered

and if M2F TGs really means closeted crossdressers then this statememt is, IMO, largely correct. She then goes on to say

Quote:that aspect is significantly slanted toward male ideas and ideals of female sexuality

Once again I would agree with that. Many of these people are indulging the fantasy of what they would do if they were female because they find it attractive in females that they see. Go to any TV/CD festival or event and mini-skirts and blonde wigs seem to be the favoured look usually with towering heels. In this group beard removal may not be an option simply because many have to live as men for most of their time.

So were do the herbals come into this? For many I have talked to they are a way of getting some reduction in male characteristics such as less harsh, less oily skin, maybe softer hair and possibly a fleshier chest that can plumped up with medical tape to have a breast-like appearance.


Quote:I have wondered in amazment for more than a decade at the girls in recovery at SRS hospitals, who still are shaving a male beard, sometimes multiple times a day. But having the sexual parts of their body changed was so important to them, that they are willing to vehemently deny the necessity of beard removal. It is a dream world, full of sex and sexuality which consumes them; and it is male images and fantasies of that sexuality that are prized.

This paragraph is interesting because it says to me that she had actually had very little interaction with transsexuals. Her website is all about selling herbals and transsexuals are on pharma so I am not surprised that she has misunderstood things. Facial hair removal takes around 5 years and it can take longer. Physical transition, including surgery is done much faster - 2 to 3 years - and so the beard will still be there. How do you shave when you cannot get out of bed for five days?

Obviously she has dealt with some transsexuals, but given her website's main purpose (selling herbals) I suspect she mainly deals with crossdressers. Herbals do work, but nowhere as effectively as pharma and as many recent reports have shown many herbals actually lack any herbs at all.
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#10

Rolf

YOU ARE SIMPLY NOT SERIOUS ????????????????????????????????????

Have you seen the results on here in the photo pages

on HERBAL PM

and you think they are flesh pumped up ?


If so go and look again hard at

stefanie, sfem , tasha, eva , pansy mae, bryony, sexless, etc etc the list is simply to long

sorry if I have missed anyone, just too astonished


Julie
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