[The First Aria]

IMO using the patch with some naturals, like herbal and such would probably show "something". I wouldn't have any qualms about doing it, but by itself, not very effective imo. Using it with Etabs, like you admit you are, is the ticket. Think of patches as "helpers', to help mother E to do it's job. But by "itself" isn't strong enough to really do the job. YMMV. If you toss PM or WP in, or have used BO and it was effective in the past, same thing, "something" will happen.

BTW injectables bypass the liver as well, as well as sublingual use of tabs.

Oh well, can't fix this "knowledgeable person".  All I know is that the "almost" estrogen (pm) tends to block real E. (Estradiol) from receptors.  How do I know??  Simple, my G.D. warned me that I would be slow to see any body change do to that fact.  He thought 2 - 3 months.  Luckily for me, it was only about 1 month them I started to re-bud and see about 1/8 - 1/4" growth every month from there out.