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PM & Caffiene
PM & Coffee is supposed to be a No-No, and that's all I really know. I think I've read somewhere that PM & Caffiene in general is not supposed to be as effective. But Green Tea is supposed to be good with PM, and here is my confusion. I dropped coffee as my morning drink, and substituted black tea in the morning, but bought green tea & spearmint tea this weekend. As I've never tasted green tea, but based in the revues, I added spearmint tea & black tea for taste, with a few drops of lemon juice.

Basically I'm confused about the PM & Caffiene aspect.

I'm not sure I would worry about that too much. I make and drink really potent coffee every morning and take Guarana (another source of caffeine) on top of that. And then black or green tea in the afternoon. Both have caffeine, the green a bit less.
I couldn't / didn't want to give up coffee. Only make 2 fresh cups a day. PM worked well for me, slow but steady
I drink 2-3 cups of coffee a day and take PM and I have had great results. I think it varies person to person.
its not so much the caffine as the estrogenic properties of the coffee, yes.. coffee is a mild estrogenic . it may compete with naturally occurring estrogen or compete with xenoestrogens (introduced from outside body, such as PM).


Coffee contributes to estrogen dominance in women. Estrogen dominance is a condition where the estrogen in a woman’s body is not balanced by progesterone. That doesn’t sound like a big deal on the surface, but, according to Dr. John Lee, it is thought to be a contributing factor in many diseases including allergies, breast and cervical cancer, endometriosis, PMS, breast and uterine cysts, decreased sex drive, infertility, hair loss, osteoporosis and many other conditions.
The way that it contributes may be by making the body more acidic. Once our bodies are too acidic, the production processes of all hormones are altered; and we all know how dependent women are on hormones for their health and happiness.

[b]It seems that when a woman’s body is too acidic, it produces too much estrogen and not enough progesterone
. Dr. Michael Lam of the American Academy of Anti-aging Research reports that in a small study of 500 women, those who consumed four or five cups of coffee per day had 70 percent more estrogen that those who drank less than one cup per day.

There is no research that proves that coffee reduces progesterone production but there are anecdotal reports from women that suggest that this is true. Whatever the cause of a progesterone deficiency is, [b]drinking coffee will make estrogen dominance worse by increasing the estrogen levels[/b]. It’s tempting to deny the facts in favor of another tasty latte, but there is no doubt that coffee makes the body more acidic than it was designed to be.

Other studies have shown an increase in infertility, miscarriages and low birth weights among babies and recommend that women who are pregnant or attempting to get pregnant should avoid excess caffeine consumption, which may increase the risk for a variety of fertility problems. While research results have been mixed, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends that pregnant women consume no more than one to two cups of coffee per day[/b].

Coffee does, in fact, contain phyto or plant estrogens. Studies dating back to the 1980′s have identified “weakly estrogenic” components in coffee. A paper published in the August 2008 issue of the Journal of Agricultural Food Chemistry found that coffee and tea contained up to 20 mcg/100 g of lignans, a type of phytoestrogen. While beer contained significantly more lignans – 71 mcg/100 g. These are obviously minute quantities of plant-derived estrogens. However, the authors of the study noted: “As these beverages are commonly consumed, they are a main source of dietary lignans”. Furthermore, emerging research is discovering previously unknown phytoestrogens in coffee which may alter “the actions of estradiol” and activate estrogen receptors. (1,2,3)

"caffeine consumed by the women in the study came from any of these sources: coffee, black tea, green tea and caffeinated soda. The findings differed slightly when the researchers considered the source of caffeine individually.

Consuming 200 milligrams of caffeine from coffee mirrored the overall findings. But consumption of more than one cup each day of caffeinated soda or green tea was associated with higher estrogen in all three groups of women, according to the study published online in the February issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

The caffeine-related changes in estrogen levels did not appear to affect women's ovulation, said the researchers, who followed the women for up to two menstrual cycles.

About 89 percent of U.S. women ages 18 to 34 consume the caffeine equivalent of 1.5 to two cups of coffee a day, according to the authors.

"The results indicate that caffeine consumption among women of child-bearing age influences estrogen levels," Enrique Schisterman, of the Division of Epidemiology, Statistics and Prevention Research at the U.S. National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, said in an NIH news release.

"Short term, these variations in estrogen levels among different groups do not appear to have any pronounced effects. We know that variations in estrogen level are associated with such disorders as endometriosis, osteoporosis, and endometrial, breast and ovarian cancers. Because long-term caffeine consumption has the potential to influence estrogen levels over a long period of time, it makes sense to take caffeine consumption into account when driving studies to understand these disorders," Schisterman said.

-- Robert Preidt"
This thread also reminded me that I needed to pick up another bag of Komodo Dragon today.Smile
Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere a few years ago that black tea can raise testosterone
I have about 2 cups in the morning, then it's water during the day & green tea per Lotus :-) at night.
Coffee didn't stop the PM from doing its thing while I was taking it...

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