[beverley.rose]

I have just returned from a evening shopping at Asda (Walmart UK) with my wife and we had a pleasant evening and got some stuff in the half-price sale. I picked up a nice pair of wedge sandals and she got a new blouse and we spent some time trying various dresses and other stuff.

So far so good.

When we returned home we were trying on various clothes from our wardrobe to see how they matched up with our new purchases when her eye fell on a old suit of mine and she made me try on the jacket because I have lost nearly 2 stones in weight since January and she wanted to see where I had lost the weight because the jacket was previously a good fit.

I put it on and it looked utterly incongruous with my dress and shoes. I felt ridiculous, then I felt a wave of utter revulsion. I broke into tears and tossed the jacket right across the room. I was trembling - physically shaking. It felt so wrong - terribly wrong.

I live most of my time en femme now but even I was startled by the extreme nature of my reaction. My wife was bemused, astonished, startled and sympathetic all at the same time so we had a big hug and I felt so much better.

All I have been on in recent months is PM or FG with SP. Chrissie says that this stuff messes with your mind and I cannot think of any other explanation.

Beverley.

[Pansy-Mae]

My sympathies. I have kind of experienced something like that twice in my life.
Once many years ago when I was fully dressed and out for the evening, and my female companion got very upset at something ( not directly to do with us) and I had this overwhelming need to rip it all off and be "a man" for her. That had nothing to do with NBE, it didn't exist back then.

The second time is more recent and arguably is to do with NBE. About 6 months ago, for external emotional reasons, in a split second I went from fully dressing as much as possible, to not at all. About 2 months ago, I started dressing again, but now I don't feel the need to dress all the way. I work from home so I am at home about 2 or 3 days a week, plus weekends, and I wear bra and knickers, heels, ladies trousers and blouses/jumpers, do my nails and eyebrows, but that's as far as I bother, even though I have wardrobes full of clothes make-up, wigs, etc, and total freedom to wear what I like.

I have seen others report that once they start the body changes, the need to dress tends to disappear. To what extent that is a direct chemical result of the herbs or whether it is a mental thing that we no longer need the outward trappings to create the illusion of a more feminine body, I have no idea.

[Isabelle]

My experience is similar.

There's been a lot of research on this in the Netherlands over the last decades. Professor Swaab
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34832#pid34832
is convinced that gender identity is fixed before birth, by exposure to sex hormones in the uterus. A transgender or transsexual identity is a consequence of a change in sex hormones or medication between the differentiation of the genitals, in the first trimester of pregnancy, and the sex differentiation of the brain, much later in pregnancy.

I don't think he has really looked into changes in gender identity later in life, as a consequence of either hormones or herbs. But he's positive that gender identity is largely fixed before birth.

Dressing away from your gender identity is associated with emotional upsets, either as a cause or as a consequence. Cross dressing is often the result of humiliation or an emotional crisis. It can also be the cause of sexual excitement. Paul Vennix found in 1997 that the degree of gender transposition (how far you dress away from your gender identity) is related to the strength of the emotion. Unfortunately, this was only published in Dutch:
http://www.eburon.nl/travestie_in_nederl...vlaanderen

I agree with Pansy Mae: if you want to get any work done, dress as close as possible to your gender identity. For me, that's ladies' jeans and sneakers, polo shirt, long hair and nails, and clearly visible breasts and curves.

For public appearances, I sometimes need to dress away from my gender identity, either way. And be prepared to spend some time dealing with the emotional consequences. Sometimes, they're nice while they last (party time), sometimes they're horrible. I too tremble when I look at my old men's suits. But just as well when I look at my old drag outfits: how on earth did I ever manage to pull this off in public?

[Pansy-Mae]

Isabelle,
Thats all interesting, thanks.

However, I don't think my cross dressing came from emotional stress, my interest in 'girls things' started ( if my mother is to be believed) when I was about three and I certainly remember asking a little girl friend if I could wear her frilly green party dress when I was only about 4 or 5. Also at about the same age, I remember a complete stranger addressing me as "little girl"

Recently, on another site that I go on, somebody posted a link to a personality profile test on a TG site. This is intended to demonstrate how far along the male - female spectrum you are.

Now I don't know how professional it is or how much validity it has, but when I took this test it at least appeared to have similar characteristics to 'proper' tests that I've had to do at work from time to time, and those certainly had validity, revealing things that I would never have admitted to voluntarily or things that I had never even realised about myself but fully understood and agreed with once they were defined. Sooo, I kind of think this test may have some basis for reality and although I stress that I would NEVER base any actions on it, I think I totally agree with where it put me.

Others who have done it, were recording results between about 30 and 248. At the upper end, not surprisingly, they were said to be TS, mine was 70 and defined as "Androgyne", which ties in with what I've said about myself on here in other threads about being somewhere close to the middle of the male - female spectrum.

If anyone is interested, the link is http://transsexual.org/cogiati/index.php?lang=en

Pansy Mae

[Isabelle]

Thank you Pansy Mae,

I did the cogiati ten years ago, and it said androgyn. Now it said so again, with a score of 20.

The advice they give looks insufficient to me though. I need more than "slight" counseling. I spent five years living in both genders, and then five years living in none. I really need a lot of time and effort to prepare to express myself in a gendered way.

As for early onset, I spent the first three years of my life with my elder sister, nannies, my mother and a couple of aunts. I didn't really notice I was different.

Most people call me Isabelle. The women characterize me as male, for reasons outside brain sex, which is what the cogiati is based on. They notice I give my car a little push when it's not in the middle of the parking space. I wear short sleeves in November. I never have any issues with taking the garbage outside, or cleaning up a mess.

That is the value of the brain sex concept: it can measure even a slight difference between the brain and the body. I want to finish Swaab's book in one sitting tomorrow. He sees a clear parallel between gender identity issues and BIID. But the book that really taught me it's OK to adjust my physical appearance to the body I feel I should have is this:
http://www.amazon.com/My-Gender-Workbook...0415916739

[beverley.rose]

Well, I just followed the link and did the test and I scored 230 and it summarised it as

"Your COGIATI score places you among the majority of those diagnosed as transsexuals, the 'late onset' tanssexual."

Hmmm..

Beverley

[Pansy-Mae]

The advice they give looks insufficient to me though. I need more than "slight" counseling. I spent five years living in both genders, and then five years living in none. I really need a lot of time and effort to prepare to express myself in a gendered way.

I'm fortunate in that, despite the two examples I gave from my life, I've never really had to struggle with myself, I just accept me for who I am. What others think of me has always important to me ( but less so as I age) so I would always avoid doing anything to draw attention to my internal 'differentness', but I'm content in that space.

[hoselover]

My experience is similar.

There's been a lot of research on this in the Netherlands over the last decades. Professor Swaab
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34832#pid34832
is convinced that gender identity is fixed before birth, by exposure to sex hormones in the uterus. A transgender or transsexual identity is a consequence of a change in sex hormones or medication between the differentiation of the genitals, in the first trimester of pregnancy, and the sex differentiation of the brain, much later in pregnancy.

I don't think he has really looked into changes in gender identity later in life, as a consequence of either hormones or herbs. But he's positive that gender identity is largely fixed before birth.

Dressing away from your gender identity is associated with emotional upsets, either as a cause or as a consequence. Cross dressing is often the result of humiliation or an emotional crisis. It can also be the cause of sexual excitement. Paul Vennix found in 1997 that the degree of gender transposition (how far you dress away from your gender identity) is related to the strength of the emotion. Unfortunately, this was only published in Dutch:
http://www.eburon.nl/travestie_in_nederl...vlaanderen

I agree with Pansy Mae: if you want to get any work done, dress as close as possible to your gender identity. For me, that's ladies' jeans and sneakers, polo shirt, long hair and nails, and clearly visible breasts and curves.

For public appearances, I sometimes need to dress away from my gender identity, either way. And be prepared to spend some time dealing with the emotional consequences. Sometimes, they're nice while they last (party time), sometimes they're horrible. I too tremble when I look at my old men's suits. But just as well when I look at my old drag outfits: how on earth did I ever manage to pull this off in public?

Indeed I have wondered sometimes if my trangerderism comes from medicines my mother took after she had some miscarriages. With medicines she became pregnant. She told some about it but I have never asked what she took and now she is passed away.

But what is dressing away form your gender identity? If I was transgender and also liked to crossdress, it is not dressing away from my gi. It is more dressing away from my actual performance to the world as male. Or did you mean something else?

Crossdressing caused by emotional upsets? Could easily be as in the time I started (around 12-13) I had a dad with severe depressions and neurotic abnormal behaviour leading to loosing his job and also to laughter of the outerworld.

BTW, I think I contributed also to the research of Paul Vennix as I filled out an extensive quiestionnaire.

[beverley.rose]

But what is dressing away form your gender identity?

I took this to mean dressing (in my case) in male clothes even though I now identify myself as female, live as female and am feminising my body.

My wife called it a very female reaction because it was completely emotional and not based on anything logical or reasonable. Men rarely act on only emotion whereas women frequently act on pure emotion (at least, according to her, and she has been a woman all her life... )

I am also finding crying incredibly easy. Tears can flow out of me at a second's notice, but the most disturbing things of all are that I now enjoy dancing and clothes shopping !!!!!

Beverley

[chrissie]

I have just had a crap night! Table of 6 booked and one is a wagablearian, [aka food fadist] and he does not like mushrooms; can I do something else. I just love those, who re-write the menu! Then they took 30 minutes to order; right on top of the next table. If that was not bad enough, I had 2 lads working for me. Who giggle talk and get distracted? Not women, what a terrible steryotype, inflicted by men. It just brought, flooding back, the misery of a childhood with the wrong body and the sheer, uncomprahending. isolation of it. Then, while I busied myself with cleaning the stove, the dad, of one, came to pick him up, while I became invisible, as they talked Rugby. I am left tearing out the remnants of my hair and hoping all men dissapear from the planet!
I did the cogniati test some years ago and came out with the same diagnosis as Beverley; on a lower score. I was left so angry at the diagnosis of "late onset", that it really hurt. I have battled and fought agaist, my trassexualisn, for decades; to have it described, as that, was profoudly distressing. This was not late onset; this was rigouresly suppressed transexualism.