Mistress Lotus has taught us that herbs including Saw Palmetto, Spearmint, Pygeum, Licorice root, and White Peony are anti-androgens, that is, they inhibit the production of testosterone in our bodies. Shouldn't Pueraria Mirifica (PM) be included in the list?

I recently had my total T tested and found that it is very low -- near the high end of the testosterone range for a bio-woman. This was accomplished by taking PM. Okay, I admit I took 800 mg of Spearmint daily for three weeks and 200 mg of Pygeum daily for two weeks, but stopped taking those 10 days before my test, so I doubt they had much effect on my T.

For me at least, PM seems to have acted as an effective anti-androgen as well as flooding my body with miroestrol, the estradiol mimic, which triggered breast growth.

Given the dual function of PM, it makes sense that beginners to NBE limit their regimen to just PM. After a couple of months have their total T tested to see if it needs to be forced down further using one of the other AAs.

If you agree the PM is also an anti-androgen, how does it work as such? Why is one's T level getting reduced? Is PM anti-5 alpha reductase? My DHT was certainly lowered as evidenced by my scalp hair regrowth. Does it bind up testosterone making it unavailable to the cells?

Okay, hit me with your best shot, but be gentle, girls.

Clara

Mistress Lotus has taught us that herbs including Saw Palmetto, Spearmint, Pygeum, Licorice root, and White Peony are anti-androgens, that is, they inhibit the production of testosterone in our bodies. Shouldn't Pueraria Mirifica (PM) be included in the list?

I recently had my total T tested and found that it is very low -- near the high end of the testosterone range for a bio-woman. This was accomplished by taking PM. Okay, I admit I took 800 mg of Spearmint daily for three weeks and 200 mg of Pygeum daily for two weeks, but stopped taking those 10 days before my test, so I doubt they had much effect on my T.

For me at least, PM seems to have acted as an effective anti-androgen as well as flooding my body with miroestrol, the estradiol mimic, which triggered breast growth.




Given the dual function of PM, it makes sense that beginners to NBE limit their regimen to just PM. After a couple of months have their total T tested to see if it needs to be forced down further using one of the other AAs.

If you agree the PM is also an anti-androgen, how does it work as such? Why is one's T level getting reduced? Is PM anti-5 alpha reductase? My DHT was certainly lowered as evidenced by my scalp hair regrowth. Does it bind up testosterone making it unavailable to the cells?

Okay, hit me with your best shot, but be gentle, girls.

Clara

Yes, its a minor anti-androgen, PM has several coactivatiors, one being (daidzien).

Daidzein (Isoflavonoid) acts as an anti-androgen by modulating androgen receptor coactivators in the prostrate. And then it acts as a phytoandrogen to the androgen receptors that plays an important part in the prostrate.

So considering that PM has 15 different derivatives and only one is an androgen, I'd say that's minor.



By modulating androgen receptor coactivators, daidzein may act as a phytoandrogen.
(PMID:17252558)
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/17252558/reload=0;jsessionid=A98DMTUQGThN7NZ8q0pd.2



By modulating androgen receptor coactivators, daidzein may act as a phytoandrogen
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pros.20470/abstract;jsessionid=CB374D9A89B74EE19CA275F4FA69E7BF.f04t01


Anything else I'll catch later, can't keep eyes open

Mistress Lotus has taught us that herbs including Saw Palmetto, Spearmint, Pygeum, Licorice root, and White Peony are anti-androgens, that is, they inhibit the production of testosterone in our bodies. Shouldn't Pueraria Mirifica (PM) be included in the list?

I recently had my total T tested and found that it is very low -- near the high end of the testosterone range for a bio-woman. This was accomplished by taking PM. Okay, I admit I took 800 mg of Spearmint daily for three weeks and 200 mg of Pygeum daily for two weeks, but stopped taking those 10 days before my test, so I doubt they had much effect on my T.

For me at least, PM seems to have acted as an effective anti-androgen as well as flooding my body with miroestrol, the estradiol mimic, which triggered breast growth.




Given the dual function of PM, it makes sense that beginners to NBE limit their regimen to just PM. After a couple of months have their total T tested to see if it needs to be forced down further using one of the other AAs.

If you agree the PM is also an anti-androgen, how does it work as such? Why is one's T level getting reduced? Is PM anti-5 alpha reductase? My DHT was certainly lowered as evidenced by my scalp hair regrowth. Does it bind up testosterone making it unavailable to the cells?

Okay, hit me with your best shot, but be gentle, girls.

Clara

Yes, its a minor anti-androgen, PM has several coactivatiors, one being (daidzien).

Daidzein (Isoflavonoid) acts as an anti-androgen by modulating androgen receptor coactivators in the prostrate. And then it acts as a phytoandrogen to the androgen receptors that plays an important part in the prostrate.

So considering that PM has 15 different derivatives and only one is an androgen, I'd say that's minor.



By modulating androgen receptor coactivators, daidzein may act as a phytoandrogen.
(PMID:17252558)
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/17252558/reload=0;jsessionid=A98DMTUQGThN7NZ8q0pd.2



By modulating androgen receptor coactivators, daidzein may act as a phytoandrogen.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pros.20470/abstract;jsessionid=CB374D9A89B74EE19CA275F4FA69E7BF.f04t01


Anything else I'll catch later, can't keep eyes open

Updated!

Thank you, Lotus. You have righted my basic misunderstanding of what an anti-androgen is. To be classified an anti-androgen, it's not simply that it causes a lowering of the body's testosterone level, which PM does quite well, it's how the substance counters the effects of androgens that still exist in the body. One of the key mechanisms that an anti-androgen incorporates for blocking the function of androgens is to tie up androgen receptors in the cells, preventing the androgen (e.g., DHT) from doing it's intended purpose (e.g., growing body hair). There are other ways an anti-androgen works to reduce overall testosterone levels, as well.

PM lowers one's testosterone levels indirectly by increasing the amount of estrogen in the body (in this case miroestrol which mimics estradiol). When the body senses the higher level of estrogen, it removes an equal amount of free testosterone by binding it to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) making it unavailable. Any unbound androgens remaining are still able to do their intended function in the absence of a strong anti-androgen.

Please correct me if my understand is still off the mark.

Hugs,
Clara

PM lowers one's testosterone levels indirectly by increasing the amount of estrogen in the body (in this case miroestrol which mimics estradiol). When the body senses the higher level of estrogen, it removes an equal amount of free testosterone by binding it to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) making it unavailable. Any unbound androgens remaining are still able to do their intended function in the absence of a strong anti-androgen.

Please correct me if my understand is still off the mark.

Hugs,
Clara

I'm impressed!

Essentially, the signaling of excess estrogen is shutting down the AR receptor, or otherwise tricking the signal that it's produced enough, quite brilliant I'd say.

This is why I suggested that you didn't need a AA when you started your program. No, not just my opinion, research backed it up.

Just search the first paragraph of this and you'll see what I'm talking about:

High serum-High serum levels of estrogen also trick the brain into thinking that enough testosterone is being produced, further slowing its natural production. This happens when estrogen saturates testosterone receptors in the hypothalamus region of the brain. The saturated hypothalamus then stops sending out a hormone to the pituitary gland to stimulate secretion of luteinizing hormone that the gonads require to produce testosterone. High estrogen can thus shut down the normal testicular production of testosterone. A further complication of excess estrogen is that it increases the body's production of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds free testosterone in the blood and makes it unavailable to cell receptor sites. The solution to this problem is to block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen


But, keep in mind everybody metabolizes E differently!

So what is the half-life of PM then? i also saw one time you posted that we continue to grow because the estrogen receptors are full, even after stopping PM. I am curious how long a break from PM is needed from time to time.

So what is the half-life of PM then? i also saw one time you posted that we continue to grow because the estrogen receptors are full, even after stopping PM. I am curious how long a break from PM is needed from time to time.

That's hard to say, below is the thread that it was talked about, so many variables. For instance, Bmi, quantity, liquid vs capsule, empty/full stomach, quality, health, diurnal cycle, male/female, etc.

I remember reading about BO and that it had a continued effect after stopping, pretty sure it was from a distributor, anyways, it lingers for 2-3 weeks in your system from memory.

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=14002&highlight=what+is+the+half-life+of+PM+then

I am curious how long a break from PM is needed from time to time.

Sorry wantingmore, I didn't respond on the break, a 3-5 day break is what menopausal women are suggested to do. Do a trail of your own version and see how it goes, your goal should be to eliminate excess estrogen during the break.


Good luck!

From personal experience of quite a few incidences, a break of 2-3weeks causes:
1) a noticeable reduction in the fat content of my boobs, which implies that the PM half life is only a matter of a few days,
2) the re-emergence or speeding up of body/leg hair growth.

Both of these effects are reversible when I go back on PM, but take longer going this way, unfortunately. Presumably because I have to go through the process of re-filling the E receptor sites then waiting for residual natural T/DHT to go, followed by the time it then takes to re-accumulate fat and shut off the hair follicles.