I am a long time lurker, just trying to wrap my head around what my options really are for dealing with some Non-binary/Androgyne GD issues. After a long time trying to unknow the truth, and make faustian deals with the universe.

So far this site and forums have been very good and helpful to me.

I have found some (lowish) level of herbal AA and E do make the GD go away and make me feel better.

If I were to say at this point what my goals are it would be to find a balance of herbals that will permanantly lock down the GD, and give a level of feminization that would let me be androgunous (which is part of what I need to shut up the GD), but still pass as male, and maintain function.

I welcome any wisdom that anyone has to offer. : )


My main newbie questions are:

1) Can low to medium levels of herbal HRT be maintained and not lose the ability to pass as male. (Though I have long hair currently, and won't cut it, but I tie it back in a typical male long-hair manner. Not currently an issue, though conservative coworkers that are otherwise cool with me would probally perfer it was short.)

2) With SP/Spearmint and various Phyto-E's (Soy Isoflavones, PM, whatever) are there any health issues to worry about. Ostheoperosis with AA and no E? I am getting periodic blood tests as part of an anual routine physical to be safe, and everything is ok so far, but I have not leveled with the doctor either about my specific concerns.

3) I am about 30 lbs from an ideal weight, down 50 from a high point. Plus a fair amount of body composition change towards lean. (I can tell where the muscle is under the remaining padding, definately some serious hips and a narrow waist. Yay Yoga!) I have some Gyno/NBE already. So far wise shirt choices hide the "Gynocomastia" very well, is there a tipping point I need to worry about where I will suddenly look very MTF / Fem-Androgyne or otherwise no longer able to play it off with wise clothing choices? (Or intense emergency bacon&egg cheeseburger therapy? (Not that it was a good idea in the past to do that!))

4) Anyone know a good Gender therapist in Baltimore Maryland that is good with Non-Binary issues? I am still terrified to admit and address all of these issues, but I know that it would be far worse in the long run not to.


- Jaded Jade

(You all rock, each and every one of you and your varied selves and situations. Thanks again for the help you all have already been to me and all the other lurkers just by being here!)

Hello Jade.

Welcome to the forum.

Question 1

I think it depends more on your physical characteristics than what herbs you take as far as your ability to pass as male. For instance, how masculine or feminine is your facial structure? Does the sound of your voice register on the low or high side of the spectrum? How tall are you? What is your hip-to-waist ratio?

You don't have to post the answers to these questions, but my intent is to get you thinking about all the different variables that distinguishes males from females. As a rule of thumb, unless strangers are already calling you ma'am and whatnot, you probably don't have to worry about being able to present as male.

Question 2

Speaking for myself, I haven't had any health issues with spearmint or PM. Of course, everyone is different. If you're going to talk to a doctor about herbal NBE, I think the challenge is finding one that is knowledgeable about such items.

Question 3

I think this really relates to question 1. While my chest certainly has a feminine projection to it, I'm still able to present as a male.

Question 4

I don't know of any as I live in the Midwest. I can't think of any members off the top of my head that live in your area of the country. I know it's not the same, but Lenneth has setup a chatroom where we discuss gender, NBE and other issues.

I am a long time lurker, just trying to wrap my head around what my options really are for dealing with some Non-binary/Androgyne GD issues.
My main newbie questions are:

Before I reply with my thoughts, I'm just curious... How long have you been "observing" this forum (I don't like the word lurking)? I ask because I always wonder who's reading so to "meet" you now is cool... but I wonder what you've "heard so far" from us

1) Can low to medium levels of herbal HRT be maintained and not lose the ability to pass as male. (Though I have long hair currently, and won't cut it, but I tie it back in a typical male long-hair manner. Not currently an issue, though conservative coworkers that are otherwise cool with me would probally perfer it was short.)

I think you can go a LONG ways before you lose the ability to present as a male. Much of it is in the way you dress so style becomes important and a size larger than necessary will hide an awful lot. Plus, you've been conditioned to act like a male for many years which is very hard (in my opinion), to reverse. I think you'll have a much harder time presenting as a female than trying to retain you male image.

2) With SP/Spearmint and various Phyto-E's (Soy Isoflavones, PM, whatever) are there any health issues to worry about. Ostheoperosis with AA and no E?

I'll answer cautiously, I don't know for sure but I don't think so.

3) I am about 30 lbs from an ideal weight, down 50 from a high point. Plus a fair amount of body composition change towards lean. (I can tell where the muscle is under the remaining padding, definately some serious hips and a narrow waist. Yay Yoga!) I have some Gyno/NBE already. So far wise shirt choices hide the "Gynocomastia" very well, is there a tipping point I need to worry about where I will suddenly look very MTF / Fem-Androgyne or otherwise no longer able to play it off with wise clothing choices? (Or intense emergency bacon&egg cheeseburger therapy? (Not that it was a good idea in the past to do that!))

Great job losing the extra weight!!! I think that alone is great "cover" for any feminization that is going on. People don't expect you to change genders so when you lose weight they attribute ANY changes they see to the weight loss. I lost 20% of weight and I'm growing my hair out, everyone notices those changes immediately but no one (other than my wife) has said a thing about the feninization I've undergone albeit slight.

4) Anyone know a good Gender therapist in Baltimore Maryland that is good with Non-Binary issues? I am still terrified to admit and address all of these issues, but I know that it would be far worse in the long run not to.

Sorry, no idea. Although I can say of those I know who frequent a therapist, most had to try a few before they found a good one or got a referral from someone who had a good one. Don't be afraid to fire a couple in search of the right one.

How long have I been following the board? About two years, found one of AbiDrew's pages after some random internet searching. For about one year I have been sure That I had GD to figure out. It is amazing the degree that one can hide such things from themselves and yet still know them... lol

As to other details on how I look, I am six feet tall and about 37, once I lose all the weight I think my face will look pretty neutral, which in my mind is a good thing, even if it is simultaneously potentially a complication.

While I might want to permakill the beard sometimes, it certainly makes stay on the masculine side of the line waaaay easier. I just wish there was a non-daily, but non-permanent way to be rid of it for a week or ten. Because shaving it every morning really sucks.

As to some of the good advice from this forum, just seeing a variety of people handling non-binary issues was a big deal for me, some of the other sites are very AMA-party line MTF all the way is the only way. And at no-E, low-E and High-E, all three, I might vary in happiness and such, but I am at this point consistently clear to me that NB/MTA is what is right for me even in an absolute sense, and certainly since I am married and don't want to mess that up.

Though enough NBE especially BO and that may shift from what I have read...

That said my Darling Wife is very open minded, and thanks to some of the good advice here, I made sure to talk to her early. She says she'd even be able to handle MTF, but would not prefer that. Both of us want me functional, and as I have said, MTA is what I think I want and need.

- JJ

Wow, that sounds a lot like my story in many ways, especially about your marital relationship. My wife says about the same thing regarding SRS. If I have to... it wont be a deal breaker but not something she wants. As for the beard, you might find that NBE combined with a pharma AA like Finpecia (typically prescribed for male pattern baldness) will do almost exactly what you wish for. I used to shave daily or else, but now I can go at least 48 hours and hardly notice. Even then, it's super easy to get a VERY close shave leaving your face "female soft" because the hairs are not nearly as stiff as before. Mine even lightened up considerably from black to grey which hides them better. Male function is a little harder though. When she wants to (about once per cycle) I can do it but there's not so much as a twitch in between times for me. Beings that I hate my junk anyway, it's actually nice that it doesn't work too well anymore and the lack of interest in porn and masturbation is a great relief too! We are both really excited about the ways it has "broadened our sexual experience". Maybe, you will find the same things if you choose a similar path.

There would be a difference for us then, that I don't mind my function, and definitely want to keep it. (The balls themselves could ideally dry up and blow away and be replaced by something more interesting, except they do help the main system stay functional...) But then everyone's Dysphoria is going to be different.

From what you are saying I am very excited that I may be on the right path then AA wise, Spearmint Extract for about a month on top of SP for longer have halted head hair loss, and seem to be slowing body hair growth elsewhere. (YAY! Also, yay epilator!!!) The pairing is strong enough to interfere with function, but I have added a Ginseng 4x blend that keeps the libido and function where I want it, for now anyways. A pharma AA might not be as easy to balance, once I have a GT I might have to try that...

Doing a facial (beard) oil treatment with almond oil(1tsp), spearmint oil(~12 drops), and red clover oil (~1ml) seems to be slowing the beard allot, and maybe even thinning it? (I will do a proper thread later but be carefull with Spearmint oil, a dab will do, it needs to be diluted allot, and even then it still burns some.) I have been a slacker with this and even still it seems to help.

And a big yes on broadened sexual experience. I am not sure to what degree she realizes that it is the cause, but confronting my GD, and my increasing Androgyny are helping me, and her! I feel better, and I am enjoying myself not just playing a role, so I am performing better. (I did quite well previously, but way better now.) Foreplay and cuddling are now as important to me as her, which I love. I feel more and more like I am in my own body. (And not operating a grotesque, non-sensitive, prosthetic husk.) All the yoga and tantric stuff are really helping both my performance and endurance... The NBE herbals have already given me many feminine erogenous zones, other than the main one, but the area at the base of the unit certainly is online in a way it never was before! And sneaky me has been using my androgynous erogenous zones to practice on myself how to better please her... My arousal and response is more feminine now too, also a huge plus, being in sync is so easy now.

Definitely a wild and liberating ride. And if one has been hurting their whole life, suddenly not hurting is an indescribable experience. To increasingly feel wonderful on top of that is a unbelievable blessing!


- Jaded Jade

Doing a facial (beard) oil treatment with almond oil(1tsp), spearmint oil(~12 drops), and red clover oil (~1ml) seems to be slowing the beard allot, and maybe even thinning it? (I will do a proper thread later but be carefull with Spearmint oil, a dab will do, it needs to be diluted allot, and even then it still burns some.) I have been a slacker with this and even still it seems to help.

This is VERY interesting! I've never heard of doing something like that but it makes me want to run out and get some to try. Can you use it on other places too? Chest, under arms, groin, legs? When do you apply it? It seems like it might even smell pretty good???

FYI my AA regime is:
400 mg of ground spearmint
640 mg SP extract daily
Finpecia 1 mg daily
+ whatever the PM and E2 are doing but I don't consider them AA's

I will do a full post on this soon, I have only tried it haphazardly due to my morning schedule being intense... lol

The idea was that if spearmint has specific anti-hirsuitism properties, and my reading sugest that it does, then applying it topically as well as systemically should have an effect.

I'll try to write a full guide soon, on this and other mad science that I have come up with that I never see mentioned anywhere else.

Particularly the details from when I started to lose hair, halted that process and partially reversed it. Though most of the trick to that is DHT blocking and hair vitimins... So not anything that people here are not doing already...


- JJ