[bryony]

Your paraphrase "as punishment" misses totally what I said. That the wife, as the injured party demands as much consideration as she needs as long as the husband can obtain sufficient relief from his GD symptoms through medication which may indeed cause breast growth but does not require the masquerade of clothing and cosmetics which could cause extreme distress to a loving wife who does not deserve it.

Bryony, I get that doing both deals out maximum damage to the wife. However, I'm curious between the two, which do think think wives would be more likely to tolerate? The effects of hormones may not be so readily obvious, but the physical changes are long lasting. The reverse holds true with makeup and clothes. Are hetrosexual women more likely to tolerate feminized males in masculine clothing or masculine males dolled up?

What you have to remember, Flame, is that everything that we dislike about our appearance is what renders it attractive to heterosexual women.

I've made an effort recently, talking to my wife and daughter, to try to figure out what specifically they look at, and they really can't be specific.

It turns out that they find attractive: a square jaw, facial hair (often), broad shoulders, flat chest (often hairy) and a complete lack of concern regarding balding in their men. In other words all of the secondary male characteristics are part of what attracts normal females to males.

Just like the female secondary characteristics (that we prize so much in women and ourselves) are what make women attractive to men.

They want other women to be friends with, share tips on clothes and fashion and makeup and how best to attract men. All the stuff that we want to emulate, because our heads are wrong.

My wife is sad about the changes, but she has seen the vast, rapid, and stable improvements in my mental health, so she is prepared to accept them. She is amazed at my ability to have multiple climaxes by breast manipulation, whereas I used to suffer from orgasmic incompetence the "normal" way, and she sees that as a benefit for me too... it keeps me as happy as it's possible for me to be!

She is absolutely terrified of the thought of me attempting to present as a female, and to be honest, I would be too.

Outside of the bedroom, I just look like any other bloke, and that is how she likes it.

As for "masculine males dolled up"? Not a chance. Those that do, with normal heterosexual males, are likely just having a bit of fun, the boy is likely very young with feminine features and they both get some kind of a mild kick out "pushing the gender boundaries" but deep down they both know what they are.

There are those women with paraphilias about dominating and humiliating men, probably due to familial abuse in their childhood. There is whole "sissy/cuckold" scene, that I personally find repulsive, where the man is feminised to the level of impotence and acts as a servant while his wife makes savage love to some big masculine man, and then he "cleans up" afterwards. These creatures profess to love their wives, but I can't see it any more than a necrophiliac or shoe fetishist loves the object of his attraction.

What I've read in this thread has helped to strengthen my conviction that bachelorhood is the best path for me. If I ever do deviate from this path, I would hope my transgender nature would become more apparent, versus having to do the unexpected talk of why I benefit from taking pm.

Well, people do keep taking it all personally, but my whole point is to make clear to "new entrants" that they need to open up to their wives before they start down the road or it won't end well.

If you did "deviate from the path" as a young person, I would guess that there wouldn't be a problem in being open from the start. The 21st century is all about moral relativism and sexual equivalency, isn't it?.

B.

[bryony]

This whole thing is really a can of worms. There are so many factors involved and if I overlay my own situation on to it, I can see no win-win scenarios.

It depends so much on the couple, where they are in their relationship and so many other factors. There are times when you have to suppress things, when you have to convince yourself that there is an alternate truth that must be applied in order to preserve your partner's state of being.

I have both suppressed some things my partner won't like and been honest about others and they both have consequences.

When you cook a meal for your spouse, the nicest pieces of meat, the best cooked veggies etc go to them right. You give yourself the pieces that were slightly burned, that broke because they stuck to the bottom of the frypan.

Putting your wife first when you can live with the consequences, is something you have to do from time to time.

There may come a time though when the consequences of suppressing outweigh the consequences of revealing. Most spouses would prefer coming out as TG over suicide. (I am cynical enough to think that not all would.)

I totally agree with Bryony that marriage is a commitment to another person and a decision as significant as TG has to involve both parties. A fait accompli is no way to handle it. I would not/could not do that to my wife.

I also agree with Clara that there is a societal issue here where gender is too binary and the concept of a continuum is gaining, but not well accepted. For those who rely on the societal framework and knowing their place in it for their wellbeing, I can understand why the author is distressed.

Thanks for the agreement, CA.

I feel it worth repeating at this point that I have no problem with informed consent. If a sufferer is up-front to his wife at the start and she understands that there is a problem and accepts it then that is absolutely fine.

Where I do have a problem is where someone lies by omission to obtain a women who will play a genuine role as wife, mother, parther for some decades, after which it will be too late for her to start again, having a bomb drop on her life. To be told, and expected to believe that after 30-odd years, it has suddenly become "all too much". Further that if she doesn't like it she can "bugger off".

That is not becoming a woman. That is becoming a male chauvinist pig in a dress.

I agree that there is a societal problem as described, but why should the wife pay for it if she was not forewarned? Probably because the other societal problem is the traditional one where the husband lies to the wife and then betrays her. That's what bugs me.

B.

[bryony]

Oh, Bryony, I couldn't disagree with you more.

When I came out to my wife after years of trans denial and doing my best to be a man and fulfill my marital and family obligations, my wife was distraught. When retirement took away the means to distract me from my mental anxiety, as my depression and self-destructive behaviors mounted, I sought help. I began to understand for myself what being transgender meant. There was no deception; there was no selfishness; there was confusion and a longing to fit into the cisworld. It was not to be. That's what you don't get. You think that taking drugs is going to 'cure' a transgender. But testosterone poisoning is only half the problem. That's you, it's not me.

Nope. They didn't cure me. The closest I get to my old depression is when I walk past any shop with women's fashions in the window, or walk through a department store. When I see a picture of a pretty girl and long to be the same.

I'm in a similar situation to a heroine addict receiving methadone. I can cope in a way that keeps my loved ones happy, and I can enjoy life under the right circumstances.

How do you know that you used the right dosage level to relieve your symptoms adequately? It took me a long time to get it right. I don't think we are so different. In the early days of my PM consumption I was in the pink fog too. If my wife had been willing, I'm sure that I might have given it a go. I'm actually glad that she wasn't because I now know that it would have been a terrible mistake for me.

My wife and I love each other very deeply. She was willing to let me go if that was necessary.

I would question the love of anyone who considered that needing to be "let go" was necessary. I'm sure a lot of men who run off with bimbos profess to love their wives but "she just didn't do it for me anymore - what was I to do?"

I was willing to take 'the pill' that would make me the cisman she thought she married. No such pill exists!

You're telling me? Currently 38 around and 34 under, 30 waist and 38 around the bum? I hide it fine with loose clothing, but there is nothing cisman about my figure.

But but but! Women aren't born with clothing and cosmetics and wigs.
They are not an essential part of femininity - maybe in the Western culture, but what about the muslim world? Would you be happy in a burkha?

Currently I'm wearing a t-shirt and jeans. Plenty of women dress that way.

I like to think I express my femininity in being less agressive, particularly driving, empathising with others, particularly women, spending a lot of time on nutrition and becoming a pretty good cook. Nothing overtly feminine, but I know how I've changed.

Cisgender people can't understand how we transsexuals feel. You have to be transsexual to understand what it's about. And, yes, transsexuals can hide their condition until late in life -- I've done it.

So this is why you are taking the whole thing personally. If you recall, I was talking about an hypothetical case. Because you did the wrong thing and got away with it, you seem to imply that everyone should get away with it. Nobody seems to give a tuppenny damn about their poor wives, who don't happen to be as accommodating as your wife.

The idea that all wives should be willing to sacrifice their husband's masculinity on the altar of his "finding himself/herself" as a fait accompli I find absolutely repellent. I'm very happy that you won the lottery, but you shouldn't expect all dishonest TG's to expect to win also.

...
At first I thought I could continue in the role of male husband, just taking the PM estrogen to ease the GD, as you suggest. Yes, I tried that. It might have worked for you, but it didn't work for me. It doesn't work for those of us with female brains that blossom in the presence of E. My female gender identity became impossible to ignore.

As I said earlier, I persevered with finding the right dosage. Maybe you didn't take a big enough doses. I ramped up to 3g/day quite quickly, often 4g. I found by trial and error that 1g of PM lasts me about 4 hours.

I seem to recall reading your early posts and when you first started taking PM I thought you were indulging in cross-dressing at the same time. Am I wrong? If so, I'm not surprised at the failure to persevere with the PM because you didn't really have an incentive.

My wife also confessed that she is glad I'm TS and not a part-time cross dresser. I am one person, all the time. I'm out to the world. I hide nothing. I am free to be the real me. I am not ashamed; Neither does she; I do not feel guilty. And, she'll tell you that I am more considerate and understanding as a mate than I have ever been.

Well that's great. You got away with it. I rejoice for you.

Stop blaming us transgenders for the complications that being transgender causes families. We are the victims, not the perpetrators. Each of us has to do what we have to do.

Again, neatly avoiding my real issue with a strawman.

I am not blaming ALL transgenders. There is a taxonomy of transgenders.

The important subclass I blame are the one who lied by omission and betray their wives, who are not willing to sacrifice their own happiness for their wives, because (a) they are typical selfish males and (b) they don't really love their wives.

Now this is a subclass. If you want to include yourself in that subclass, it says more about you than it does about me.

Please note carefully that this is a general class of transgenders with specific qualities. You cannot lump ALL transgenders together to defend the bad ones just as I am not criticising the good ones.

There is nothing about transgenderism that absolves people from doing bad things to people who do not deserve it.

[/quote]

[GoneGirl]

Bryony,

I'm going to drop out of this exchange. It's done enough damage already, imo. The message I'm getting is that you have a profound sense of disgust for late transitioning transsexual women who happen to be married to wives who can't accept their transition, but go ahead anyway. That many of these men are not really transsexuals, but rather autogynephiles as described by psychiatrist Ray Blanchard, though his work has been largely discredited. Good luck to you on wherever your journey takes you.

Clara

P.S. I encourage everyone to read Jenny Boylan's book "She's Not There". It offers some encouragement and hope for us transsexuals that for one reason or another came to an understanding of our TG/TS condition late in life, and how it can be embraced while continuing in a loving marriage for the benefit of all involved, even children.

[Misty0732]

I've haven't been on the board much over the past few weeks, so I am coming late to this discussion.

In my case I absolutely know that transition will never be an option, no matter how much I grow to want it. I love my wife more than I love myself, and I would suffer the fires of hell itself before I would bring pain down on her. She knows about my GD and fears its effects. I let her know over and over that she has nothing to fear. That is difficult for me but that is just the way it is.

I fully acknowledge that there are other situations and other couples who will handle this differently. I have long since resigned myself to my reality, however, and I don't torture myself with any misplaced hope that it will change.

I'm currently off PM and my GD is as strong now as it ever was (maybe even stronger). I will continue to cope, however, and stay within the boundaries my wife can tolerate.

Misty

[bryony]

Bryony,

I'm going to drop out of this exchange. It's done enough damage already, imo.

It's significant to me that, in the 21st century, to disagree with the prevailing orthodoxy is considered "damaging". I don't see the damage. Debate is healthy. Damage is accepting something that you believe is wrong, to keep everyone happy. That way leads to a loss of freedom.

The message I'm getting is that you have a profound sense of disgust for late transitioning transsexual women who happen to be married to wives who can't accept their transition, but go ahead anyway.

Almost right. You left out the bit about deceiving them that they were cis-gendered for their entire married lives, depriving them of any chance to live and grow old with someone who had not lied by omission in order to get a wife and mother. It's an important distinction.

If the wife had agreed to the proposal with eyes wide open in order to get a husband and children, and then reneged on the agreement, then I would consider her to be at fault.

Am I a villain to expect honesty between loving partners?

That many of these men are not really transsexuals, but rather autogynephiles as described by psychiatrist Ray Blanchard, though his work has been largely discredited.

I think to be able to live as a husband and father for some 30-odd years with no homosexual feelings is distinctly different from screaming at puberty about possessing a penis and feeling distincly erotic feelings for boys.

I honestly cannot see how the two classes can be lumped in together. I believe that the discrediting was achieved mostly by activists who didn't like one group of transsexuals being somehow 'more real' than the other in my opinion .

The discrediting was more a triumph of political correctness than science, I feel.

Good luck to you on wherever your journey takes you.

And to you!

B.

[bryony]

I've haven't been on the board much over the past few weeks, so I am coming late to this discussion.

In my case I absolutely know that transition will never be an option, no matter how much I grow to want it. I love my wife more than I love myself, and I would suffer the fires of hell itself before I would bring pain down on her. She knows about my GD and fears its effects. I let her know over and over that she has nothing to fear. That is difficult for me but that is just the way it is.

I fully acknowledge that there are other situations and other couples who will handle this differently. I have long since resigned myself to my reality, however, and I don't torture myself with any misplaced hope that it will change.

I'm currently off PM and my GD is as strong now as it ever was (maybe even stronger). I will continue to cope, however, and stay within the boundaries my wife can tolerate.

Misty

That is exactly how I feel, Misty. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

B.