[flamesabers]

Hello everyone,

The inspiration of this thread came from posters on the "safe space" thread. 

(Disclaimer: English is my first and only language).

I never had my chromosomes tested. I presume they're XY, based on my HRT regime and no doctor has ever suggested to me that I might have anything different. 

For clarification, I joined this forum about 9ish years prior to my "official" transition on HRT in 2021. Back in 2012, I didn't have any disagreement about joining a BN subforum intended for "genetic males." I just wanted to grow breasts and learn from people who had similar genetics/biology/hormones as mine. I was well aware that participating in the genetic female side of the forum didn't make sense, as I had a testosterone dominance and low estrogen levels to change if I wanted to grow feminine breasts. Loading up on PM made sense for my NBE regime to be successful. But for a genetic female? I don't know what kind of PM level would be best appropriate for her, other then perhaps the recommended bottle dosage for 500-1,000mg a day (for Ainterol's brand anyway). I knew I could never do that kind of self-experimentation for a genetic female considering my current hormone system. 

Even though I was aware of my possible trans indicators, I was still presenting/living as a male in real life 100% of the time. NBE was a secret I didn't even tell my doctors about. I don't recall exactly when, but I remember posting as a "male staying male" in the relevant sub-forum as I had no plans of transitioning. The obvious pronouns for me to go by was he/him (at least in real life anyway). (They/them never resonated for me, as I don't consider myself non-binary). 

Early-to-mid 2021 happened and then I made the decision to transition. I started my HRT with Planned Parenthood. I remember on their intake form they inquired on what pronouns I go by. I put something to the effect of "doesn't matter." In my mind at the time, this was only a single step towards transitioning. Even though I had 9 years of breast growth from PM, I was still living/presenting as male in real life. Changing my pronouns to she/her didn't feel right at the time.

With all of that said, now nearly 5 years into my transition, I'm still well-aware of my biology, (likely) genetics, and what my hormone levels would probably be if I wasn't on exogenous hormones (HRT). When I come out to others as trans, I believe that automatically "covers the bases" of me disclosing I'm a genetic male. However, with the amount of time I've been on HRT, and long since legally transitioned, I'm living as a woman 100% of the time. I no longer have to pretend to be a guy anymore. Outside of the doctor's office, and sexual/romantic partners, being a gentic male has become less and less relevant for me in real life.

TLDR: I'm not bothered by the title of this forum (breast growth for genetic males), nor do I feel it needs to be changed. At most maybe there could be another subforum for intersex individuals under the transgender section? Do I want to be referred to as a genetic male? I don't feel that particular label is as accurate as being a trans woman.

As for my biology and hormones, it's no secret that I'm on MtF HRT. The M part (or starting point) stands for male. But again, I think the label trans woman is much more fitting for me then male.

[Shirazmn]

Thank you @flamesabers for starting this thread.

Before I talk about myself, I want to explain where I get my terminology from. I have done scientific studies for most of my life and I appreciate the clarity of scientific nomeclature, therefore I tend to use terms that are based in science and that have a meaning not defined by me or by a political current but by scientists. 
I know that a lot of people are very sensitive about the distinction between sex and gender, and I want to be very clear that I use these terms as they are used in biology, similarly to genotype and phenotype, and with no intention to insult anyone. You can find some information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80%93gender_distinction and, most importantly, in the sources at the bottom of the Wikipedia page.

Also, English is NOT my first language (I am Italian) and I live in the UK, so I apologise in advance for my grammar, for the potential lack of clarity, and for my spelling of the word "apologise".

I am a genetic male and I was Assigned Male at Birth (AMAB). I am cisgender, which means that I do not feel like I should be female and I do not intend to transition to being a woman in society. 
Just for clarity, I adopt the definition of "genetic male" as being born with XY chromosomes which came with a set of male genitalia producing fertile gametes, testosterone production etc... 
I mentioned "cisgender" which is made of "cis" (from the Latin: "on the same side of") and gender, which is defined of how a person acts in society to be commonly placed into the category of "man" or "woman". Cisgender, in my case, means that I am a male and that I want society to see me as a man in accordance with my genetics and genitals.

I have embarked many years ago (10, I think) in NBE because I want to grow breasts. I have always been curious about physical feelings, which led me to crossdressing to experience feeling connected with women's clothes (which I personally prefer to men's), which in turn led me to wonder what having breasts feels like. Therefore I am growing a pair. I do realise that many people would call this a fetish, and I do not intend to start defining what a fetish is, but to me it's just part of who I am, fetish or not.
As unusual as this may be according to society's standards, I still want to be seen as a man, regardless of which method I'll choose to grow breasts, which so far has involved herbs (mostly PM), DIY HRT (mostly Progynova) and mechanical stimulation (mostly Noogleberry and milk pumps). 


I originally joined BreastNexus (with an "s") as BreastNexum (with an "m") was its sub-forum. Since it has become its own site, I have always found that its subtitle "breast growth for genetic males" resonates with me and my needs. If anyone wants to share their experiences with me, be them male/female/men/women/cis/trans/intersex etc... I am always happy to listen and I hope that their experience in breast growth will be useful for myself and for others. Necessarily, I feel like my personal experience is more transferable to people born with the same genetic markup as me, XY, which is what I call "genetic males". I have absolute no prejudice against other males wanting to follow the same path I am walking, or against people of any sex, gender, or from any walk of life going in any other direction.

This is, perhaps, the most pedantic introduction of myself I have ever written, but I wanted to clarify the terminology that I use and why I use it.  

I hope that if in the future other members of the forum will interact with me, they'll take this post into consideration. I will never misgender anyone intentionally, and I expect people to not misgender me (for example by calling me transgender when I am not), but if things boil down to scientific tems I will use them appropriately. I do understand that in this forum it's easy to mix things up and I am willing to accept mistakes, as I hope others will, as long as they are part of a constructive conversation.

[Bromsnor]

I am not a scientist, but my mental make-up needs clarity, and so I am completely on board with your discourse. I hope my English is gramatically adequate enough, my language is Dutch (Nederlands)my whole life (81+ years). My reasons for breast growing are more or less the same as yours.

Greetings from the Low Lands.

[Heaven's Night]

This thread is so far going much nicer than I thought it would. Cool. 

I think language, words and terms are of high importance because its language which shapes the ideas and values of the culture that uses it. Obviously English language makes things very different and as English speakers come from all over there world, there's going to be whole lot of conflicts and misunderstandings. I mean English isn't my first language either, its second. Althought I'm quite fluent in it.

I think using AGABs is somewhat relevant, but that depends on where and how its used. For example, "AMAB" on my part is quite irrelevant and might be misleading as its based on a glance of a doctor without any investigation on what's going as babies aren't investigated for intersex conditions most of the time. So I don't see why I should use "AMAB" for myself.

God forbid doctors admitted they can't know the sex of the babies on perfect accuracy by giving their magical glance between their legs. 

Then MtF is a bit problematic in my opinion, because it emphasises the male, it kinda keeps conveying the idea that trans woman is always a man no matter what. But for simplicity its useful for clarity especially in social sense as especially anyone older than a kid will have lived significant time in male social role before transition. Then again, has a trans woman ever truly been "male" to begin with? No, she has not, as you are born as a trans woman, or you're not. We are female wired at least in our brain, or it could be even more thorough than just brain chemistry. I don't think any trans woman has ever truly been a man to begin with. If we were, being who we are would be a choice. Maybe it is a choice to some people? I can't know, but I wouldn't discard the much repeated story how many trans women have been, on at least some level, aware that they're different from what they're told they were. This is true onmy part as I started toquistion my experience in around age four to six. Basically soon after the time that a child starts to develop a sense of gender and sex. Of course many others start to question much later.

Anyway, I see MtF/FtM useful for its simplicity, but also problematic as its an oversimplification for much more complex issue.

I can't use "genetic male" for myself, it would be dishonest. I can't be "male" because I'm intersex. My body behaves in strange way and has developed in a way men do not. This was evident already when I was kid and especially in the way my puberty happened. About this I've posted in detail in my main thread somewhere.

But then, I do have male looking genitals, I do have activated Y chromosome obviously since otherwise I wouldn't have developed outer genitalia the way guys have it. And my DNA test found my father line which is tracked by Y chromosome and I had to update their information so they have my gender marker corrected. I can only keep telling that I'm intersex, as my body has developed sex characteristics of both sexes. I have full or partial female genitalia inside me, while outside looks male, and likely I have one testicle and one ovotesticle. So I can't be called a "genetic male". 

I think "biological male/female" is totally wrong because there's a problem with definition as human biology is far more complex than the typical binary thinking of it. Here's a similar problem as with MtF/FtM, its an over simplification of a complex system that is human biology. There are enough deviations and also exogenously generated changes to obscure the meaning of biological male/female. Its one of these terms which is accurate in a lot of cases, but inaccurate in others.

Distinction of sex and gender makes sense in English language, or any highly gendered language which has different words for both. In Finnish there's only "sukupuoli" which is used for both, and usually clarified by the context. For example "transsukupuolinen" means both transgender and transsexual at the same time, and could be used to replace either. The contexts (hopefully.) tells what the details are, as in is it about a social gender roles, gender presentation, or is is about physical sex characteristics and so on.

I use both those terms, I don't think transsexual is outdated or useless, its all about the context. I call myself intersex and transsex(ual) all the time because both are true. And transgender is also useful for making sense to it. For example, all non binary people are transgender in some way, but not all of them are transsexual as some of them (Like my fiancé) are not doing a physical transition. In this sense, a trans woman who does social transition only, but no physical changes to her body is transitioning her gender but not her sex. However, those who do a full physical sex transition do change their sex to the extent that medical knowledge and techniques allow which is far more extnesive than often thought. The changes from long term HRT alone are massive! We are rewriting our bodies on cellular level and completely rewiring our brain functions, sensations and visibly grow and change our secondary sex characteristics. And then comes in the, for now, necessary surgical changes. Which are very real on making a sex change happen. You know it for a fact, that many of us would rush for getting uterus transplants, lab grown body parts and hacking our genetics with CRISPR to make our transitions absolute and complete on all sex characteristics there is if it were possible.

So, considering this, there is a good use for terms transsex and transsexual. They're not slurs, they're not outdated, they're perfectly descriptive of what I am doing for example, and I think Alice is too and so on.

Cis as in cisgender and cissex are descriptive and useful. "Cis" as a descriptor is not a slur, it has never been used as a slur, its invented for being a descriptor of people who do not transition their sex/gender vs. transgender or transsex people who do. That's the only reason why its used and its perfect for the context of differentiating life experience etc.

I kind of like the old use of Cissex, the idea was that while transition is in progress, I'm transsex and when its ready, then I become cissex as the end result both physically and socially has almost zero difference to cis sex woman. It is thought as a term for current life situation post transition. It makes sense, obviously not everybody likes to use it like that and its largely seen as outdated. In my case, that would be inaccurate because I will never stop being intersex physically, but in my life already now, I live much like a cis sex women do. To the outside world irl, there is no difference. I am just one of the women as I pass at all times. 

The term "to pass" for a cis woman, I think that is somewhat problematic because being able to assimilate should not be a requirement for a happy life for trans person. It used to be a requirement to even get transition care back in the day and that was highly discriminating and unfair. I think its ok to use the term because it quickly conveys the idea of what it means. But to use "cis passability" as a requirement or for valuing people is extremely wrong. Note that there are endless number of cis sex people who do not pass for their sex/gender. I know many both men and women who are mistaken for all the time. So they do not "pass", they have the same issue as visible trans person does. So passing, not a good concept as any kind of value indicator or a requirement.

Chromosomes keep on being mentioned so much, its kinda strange because most people cannot be 100% certain of theirs as its not certain without karyotype testing. Most people will never require it. I couldn't easily get it done either, I would love to know which setup I have as I'm almost certain its not a typical XY, more likely XXY or a chimeratic one which means that I may have different chromomosomes in different parts of my body. Only thing I'm certain of is an activated Y chromosome. I don't think its wise to overemphasise chromos, they do not matter much after birth anyway, everything else has an bigger impact afterwards. For example, does chromosomes make lives of trans people or intersex people any different in daily life? Most likely it doesn't. Will anyone care a damn thing which ones you have? Probably not. Does it matter in the context of this forum? Maybe, but probably not.

I think the "genetic males" in the forum title is a bit annoying, but its also descriptive as almost everyone here comes from the starting point or full or partial male development in puberty and most of the time T dominant, maly typical hormone balance. Which is obviously the biggest obstacle to conquer on the way to breast growth and or full body feminisation in case of sex transition by HRT. I don't like the title here, but I don't know anything better to replace it either. At least when the "biological males" was taken away, that was a smart move. I remember reading about Lotus arranging that. It was a great move because "genetic males" is more descriptive and not obviously transphobic in that context. At least its not that bad. But its been misused a lot, I've been told to get the fuck out because this forum is for biological or genetic males, and I'm not male. This is of course a strawman argument, a crutch to try to get rid of me and absolutely transphobic use of those terms. This is why I've said many times that "biological male" is a transphobic dogwhistle. Hateful right wing media outlets use it like that all the time, I wish nobody here would and rather speak of "genetic males" instead.

Sex change or sex transition I think are quite decent and descriptive terms. They're absolutely fitting to my situation, again due simplicity. My coming bottom surgery is a "sex change" of my external genitalia, I could also call it re-arrangement of my vulva to have a vaginal canal which I naturally don't have. And what I'm doing is sex transition of those traits which weren't fully female ones. Claiming that sex is immutable and never changing is false, its a lie, an untruth, and against medical knowledge of what HRT and surgeries accomplish. So any claim that sex cannot cahnge or sex transition can't happen is transphobic and categorically false. I want you all to pay extra attention to this, the science minded people can go on a searcfor study articles on these matters to get a deeper understanding of how this all works. Some trans people do not like these terms either, but again, they're descriptive and should be considered in the context.

Getting pronouns right it highly important in all gendered languages. Note that Finnish language is extremely gender neutral, we do not have gendered pronouns at all. Him/her/they is always just "hän" no matter who it is. Only typically gendered words are mostly names of professions ending in mies=man, and otherwise everything is very neutral. This is why I can make mistakes in English language some times, messing up pronouns can happen as in myfirst language its not a thing, although I mistake rarely. For example, my fiancé goes by she/they but mostly I just keep calling her a she as it just comes naturally when typing or talking. I know she's not pissed off about it, as a FInnish speaker she doesn't mind the pronouns as much either. Obviously this is way more important issue to anyone who speaks highly gendered language and that should be taken in consideration. And no getting pissed off about getting corrected on it! This is one of the shortest simplest identifiers there is and its easily building up confidence when its done correctly. I know I felt super nice especially in early transition when people would get my pronouns right. Then again, in real life I don't care as we don't have them here like that. 

This post is getting way longer than I planned, I have to get the day started and do stuff...

I hope this topic takes off and poeple give a good thought or few to this stuff. We need to be aware of language as words carry ideas and convey attitudes, which in last few years have gone so terribly worse. BN cannot allow transphobic language to seep in, people have to understand how it works. There are so many LGBT posters here, and even cis hetero crossdressers at least rub elbows with LGBT culture a whole lot, obviously, its blatant af. A cishet man growing boobs is already doing such gender bending that everyone should consider how they think of the world around them, and the extremely diverse bunch of people who get drawn to growing boobs. I think a boob growing cishet man being transphobic is an oxymoron as he himself is also changing his sex cracteristics, albeit for different reasons and maybe with different methods.

Language is hugely important, I hope this thread takes off in a positive way.

[Heaven's Night]

One more thing about the term genetic male I forgot to add... Its weird, because is there a non genetic male in existence? Or a non genetic female?

Because keep in mind, that the body changes from HRT are genetic, our bodies always obey the genetic makeup we inherited and we all carry "the code" of the other sex within our genetics, the changes that occur are natural. Albeit from exogenous artificially induced hormone balance. But even the hormones we use are these days almost all bioidentical, as have the same makeup as naturally produced hormones have.

So, is anyone who changes their sex characteristics with hormone tweaking becoming a "non genetic" male or female? Obviously not. I am not aritificial or non genetic because I'm helping my body to grow the sex characteristics it could not do without a fully female hormone balance. But that will not make my body "non genetic" in any way because it is exactly the genetics I carry which allows me to grow big curves and it has made me shorter, changed my eye colour, my hairline, my skin, even the way my skin diseases flare up has changes. My body odour is different, my genitals function differently, HRT reactivated my mensturation and my cycle is like clock work. Am I not then a "genetic female" as the changes have been exogenously given a helping hand? 

This is why I think the forum title is problematic. But there is nothing better to replace it, and the term genetic male makes sense in the context we're using it here. The problem is wrong interpretation or malicious use as in trying to get me off the forum as I am not a "genetic male" in the context most are who say they are. But my male characteristics are obviously genetic, goddamn this is so funnily conflicting. lol. 

The point being, when debating about human biology, we're complex as fuck and it gets more obscure and strange more closely you look. Especially when it goes to level of genetics which is insanely complex system, I have only surface level and vague understanding of genetics as its such a huge subject. Lotus understands it way better, I miss her badly, she would give such great explanations to all this kinda science geek stuff, I'm sure.

And in case someone wants to categorise trans people as non genetic... There's a nice reply to that. 

[flamesabers]

I see MtF & FtM as neutral terms that can help cis people to better understand the direction of a transition. I say neutral because I think it side-steps the political debate of what is a woman or what is a man. In a language vacuum, I would say biological male and genetic male would be interchangeable terms. However, as of late, I think "biological male" is used by many transphobes to demean trans women into not being a type of woman. In this regard, I'm glad BN uses "genetic male" instead of biological.

In many contexts, I think sex and gender is used interchangeably in the English language. Obviously, this wouldn't be an issue for cis people. For trans people, I've heard sex described as "what's between the legs" and gender as "what's between the ears." However, I think this gets complicated when one considers the trans people who get SRS and whatnot.

When I started learning about trans people (back in my teen years), the common term I came across was transsexual. Now it seems transsexual has been largely replaced by transgender. I'm not particularly set on using one term or the other, hence why I refer to myself as trans (the prefix for both).

[prostatenipple]

Hi

Very quick reply from me. I am also not a native English speaker (although I am fluent), and live in the UK.


I don't truly know what I am. I may need people on the forum to help me work it out.


In the biological or genetic sense, I am AMAB, and I presume I have XY chromosomes.
I present as male externally: I sound male, I look male, I have male features.

Except, I also:

1. have very little body hair (except face, head, pubic area)
   
2. have low testosterone
   
3. have gynocomastia (ultrasound confirmed on one nipple, and the other nipple is feeling the same just smaller)
   

I can't say that I feel 100% male.

I view a lot of men with distrust (don't know why) unless I know them already.

And also:

1. I have crossdressed in secret. My earliest memory was when I was about 7 years old.
   
2. I have a stash of female underwear hidden.
   
3. Anytime I watch (hetrosexual) porn I secretly focus on and assume the identity of any female performer.
   
4. Last 2 years my fantasies of being or becoming a woman have increased in intensity and frequency.
   
5. I have been taking PM and other NBE substances for the past 4 years.
   

I want to have breasts and larger areolas, and I don't fully understand why.
When I went to the doctor to ask about checking my breast, the slightest mention of having surgery to remove it made me wince in horror.

I often catch myself off-guard flicking or playing with my nipples during the day.

Maybe my low testosterone means I was always pre-deposed to take this journey?

Am I MtF? Am I trans? Am I cisgender? Am I intersex?

I don't mind what other people call me, at least at this stage. But I feel I don't know myself so it's ok either way.

[flamesabers]

Hello prostatenipple,

I think you ask some questions that are very difficult to answer (as only you can answer some of them, particularly about whether you're MtF or trans).

I can't say that I feel 100% male.

Would you be willing to elaborate more on this? Do you feel partly female or another gender altogether?

1. I have crossdressed in secret. My earliest memory was when I was about 7 years old.
2. I have a stash of female underwear hidden.
3. Anytime I watch (hetrosexual) porn I secretly focus on and assume the identity of any female performer.
4. Last 2 years my fantasies of being or becoming a woman have increased in intensity and frequency.
5. I have been taking PM and other NBE substances for the past 4 years.

I think points #1,2 & 5 is something you can do as a cis or trans person. Some guys enjoy cross-dressing for a multitude of reasons. And of course, this website has lots of guys who want to grow breasts. On the other hand, wearing female clothing and growing breasts can be affirming for trans women.

Points 3-4 may be potential indicators of you being trans. 

Maybe my low testosterone means I was always pre-deposed to take this journey?

How do you feel about having low testosterone levels? Is this a blessing or a curse for you? Would you prefer to have estradiol be your dominant hormone?

Am I MtF? Am I trans? Am I cisgender? Am I intersex?

I can't say whether you're trans or cis. As for being intersex, that might be best answered by talking with a doctor.

If it could help, I could share my own experiences of being a trans woman. I know I'm trans because being a woman is the norm for me. I couldn't imagine going back to pretending to be a guy. I also love being on estradiol. 

Pre-transition, I think some of the signs were:

1. I enjoyed the mental benefits of being on PM (compared to when I went cold-turkey from the herb)
   
2. I never took offense at being referred to as she/her
   
3. I liked how anti-androgens (such as spearmint) suppressed my masculine libido
   
4. I wanted to have breasts and a feminine body
   
5. I hated having facial hair and other masculine characteristics