25-07-2011, 10:28 AM
Estrogens & Phytoestrogens
April 9 2007 at 6:23 PM Blu-jay (no login)
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TS girls usualy take about 6mg of estrogen (estradoil,Estrace or premarin)plus antiandrogens and progesterone daily. Does anybody know what those amounts would be using phyto estrogens? Phytoestrogens are much weaker than estrogens.If they mimic or act like estrogens there must be an equal amount or close to that? This info isn't easy to find.I've been searching and not comming up with anything solid. Does anybody have any info or links about this? (estrogen = phytoesrogens) have any of you ever checked into this? Thanks
Author Reply
Moonstruck
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 9 2007, 7:39 PM
I dunno.
But what I do know is that what I'm taking IS working for me. YMMV.
Three times a days I take herbs, about every 8 hours.
Daily doses:
Soy Lecithin - 6 caplets, 1200mg each = 7,200mg per day
Saw Palmetto - 6 caplets, 450mg each = 2,700mg per day
Red Clover - 6 caplets, 500mg each = 3,000mg per day
Black Cohosh - 3 caplets, 80mg each = 240mg per day
Total = 13,140mg of phytoestrogens I consume each and every day.
Plus, the following
Prilosec - 1 per day, 20mg - documented to cause gynecomastia!
Note: I'm not taking the prilosec by choice, I MUST take it, I have severe acid reflux. I've been taking various AR medications for about 10 years now, I'm 100% certain that they are what actually jump started my gyn in the first place. MOST acid reflux medications list gynecomastia as a side effect. I don't think Prilosec is a phytoestrogen, I don't really know what or why it does, I just know that yes, it does cause it, I have no doubt of that. Also know this, none of the OTC Acid Reflux medications tell you that they can cause gyn anywhere on the package or in the included information sheet inside the box.
The only way you find out is when after you've been taking the stuff for a long time you slowly begin to realize you're growing tits. Then you start to wonder "Why am I growing tits?" and you look up "bitch tits" online. After a few days of research you end up suspecting the stomach medicine you've been taking daily for years. A trip to the manufactures website you find the word gynecomastia listed as a side effect. 99% of people have never heard of that before and have no idea what it is. Thing is, they don't warn you of this via the packaging, you have to find it out the hard way.
However, you can either taking this as a total disaster or a blessing. Depends on your point of view.
I don't know how this would compare to real hormone consumption. I think it would be safe to say that if one could consume that amount of real hormones one would have titties you would have to transport in a wheelbarrow..
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TB
(no login) What you goal is. April 10 2007, 4:27 AM
I think that tranny are really trying to drop their testosterone levels for reason that have nothing to do with breast enhancement. If you are trying to do a sex change that is one thing. I just wanted female breasts. I have a ver high testosterone level and still have big breasts. I don't think you need to lower you Testosterone level. You need to direct whatever esotrogen/phytoestrogen to your boobs and the progesterone ceam rubbed onto them will help that. Extra testosterone in a males body is turned into estrogen, so you can direct that to your boobs. That is why body builders get boobs. Lowering you testosterone levels can really create problems for a man, osteoporosis and extreme tiredness. Why go thu that.
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waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 2:43 PM
Here is something I posted a while ago in the information on herbs thread. It was taken from a muscle building article for men on how to avoid estrogen (to avoid its interference with testosterone). Table 1 lists the micrograms but it needs to be compared to Table 2 which shows the estrogenic potential of these herbs. Apparently many of the herbs are very estrogenic at low doses and some of the herbs are even more estrogenic than estrogen itself. Because of this I don't think you will be able to say that a certain gram amount of an herb will equal an exact amount of estrogen. However, you can certainly determine which phytoestrogens will have a greater estrogen effect. Of course this is not a complete list. I am trying to compile that on the main forum.
Micrograms of Estradiol Equivalents/200 cc or 2 gm Dry Herb
Soy milk 8/200cc
Yucca 0.5
Licorice 4/2 gm
Tumeric 0.5
Red Clover 3
Hops 0.5
Mandrake 3
Verbenna 0.5
Bloodroot 2
Yellow Dock 0.5
Thyme 2
Sheep sorrel 0.5
It is important to understand that just because a food, herb or spice has ER binding capability, it does not mean that it inhibits estrogen formation or acts as a natural aromatase inhibitor. In fact, the total opposite is true. In short, Table 1 indicates that the 12 listed agents have estrogenic activity at low physiological doses.
Table 2 lists the results of the research examining the effects of the herbs on ER (+) breast cancer cells. Any herb or spice with a score above 400 has greater estrogenic activity than estradiol.
TABLE 2
Effects of ER(estrogen receptor) binding herbs on ER (+) Breast Cancer Cells
Coumestrol 2500
Licorice 1600
Jumiper 100
Bloodroot 0
Red Clover 3000
Nutmeg 200
Mistletoe 500
White Clover 500
Dong Quai 200
Yucca 2600
Thyme 2
Damiana 200
Table 2 indicates that coumestrol, red clover, mistletoe, don quai, hops, licorice, white clover, yucca and motherwort are more estrogenic than estradiol!
By the way, with some of these herbs there is a nasty toxicity potential too, so be sure to research thoroughly before you take them.
Hope this was some help,
waxingmoon
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Blu-jay
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 2:59 PM
Thanks Guys for your input.I was just curious about Phyto-estrogens and real estrogens and their simularities. I take peuraria mirifica 1000 mgs. daily with EPO (an estrogen promoter) and some vitamins. The Peuraria similar in structure to Estradoil. It seems to be working for me but Its still early. I want to grow boobs and feminize to a certain point but I don't want to go the "Full Montey" If you know what I mean.. Happy growing guys!
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twinklepose
(Login twinklepose)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 5:34 PM
Hi Blu-Jay, I'm also taking PM - have been for about a month now and have ordered another month's worth.
I was interested in what you said about it being similar to Estradoil. I don't want to feminise "all the way" either and I want to keep things working "down there"! You don't think there's any risk of impotence from PM do you?
I've certainly had no problems yet - but as I stated in an earlier thread, my orgasms do feel quite different.
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Moonstruck
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 8:30 PM
Careful! Mistletoe is a deadly poison! I would steer way away from that one.
There's just so many other things out there that not only safer but more beneficial towards our goals.
Mistletoe is bad news. I wouldn't take it for any reason ever!
As for orgasms, yes, they are different. It's very weird. I don't want to get graphic but they are stronger, longer and much more intense but different. And output is greatly increased, 3-4 times as much as it was before. It's like it was when I was 18 years old, maybe even better. That's weird to me considering what I'm doing to my system now. I remember when I was about 24 and I stole some birth control pills from my live in lover, after taking them for a month it pretty much shut down my male functions. Erections were almost impossible and orgasms were bone dry. It scared me pretty badly so I stopped taking them and a few weeks later things seemed to return to normal.
On the other hand now, I don't think about sex as often lately.
What's weird, when I was a kid I would get all excited putting on women's clothes. Now I get all excited when I take them off!
It's like when I sit down on the edge of the bed at night and take my bra off for bed, I sort of rub my tits and massage them to relieve myself of the bra annoyances and that's usually what gets me excited. Having a more feminized body IS a sexy turn on.
Ta TA's for now, and forever more! ( . )( . )
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 8:51 PM
It's not only mistletoe that is poisonous - Bloodroot is poisonous too! And an overdose of nutmeg can also poison a person - in cooking you use very small amounts.
I think that a lot of people on these boards have no idea what it is they are taking.
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Blu-jay
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 10:04 PM
Hmmmm. who's taking mistle toe?
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A
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 1:30 AM
Can you explain the Soy milk 8/200cc and the Dong Quai 200 again? I don't know if I follow. Soy milk is a good thing to drink several times a day??
And since Fennel, Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto are not in Table 1 or Table 2, then they are non toxic and safe to take? Do they increase your risk for male breast cancer?
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A
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 2:38 AM
Actually a better question would be, "How do you reduce risk of male BC when using herbs?" Fennel, if I recall, women BC is more linked to high estrogen? But for males to grow breasts, we have to increase our estrogen too.
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Blu-jay
(no login) A April 11 2007, 5:49 AM
There are good estrogens and bad estrogens.The good are more like estradoil which is the main estrogen produced by the ovaries.There 2 more estrogens that are the ones linked to breast cancer. I'm not sure what they're called. I have that info written down somewhere and I will post it when I find it. High testosterone can also cause cancers being: prostrate cancer,cancer in the testicles and in the penis itself. They are due to bad testosterone. This testosterone is called dihydrotestosterone. Increasing your estrogen levels does not mean that you will get breast cancer. Taking artificial hormones will increase the chances of getting Breast C. Like ones produced in Labs or the ones made out of horse Pee. Naturals (herbs, phytoestrogens) are safer to use but they can also be dangerous. There's always some risk. Hope this helps a bit.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Waxing Moon April 11 2007, 6:51 AM
Did you find that the article taken from a muscle building article had any reliable source information? I don't completely trust that list, it doesn't seem to make sense. Perhaps they have misinterpreted some study they read?
Other than that, I wish everyone good luck with the herbs.
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Moonstruck
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 7:47 AM
I was pretty angry about the price of BC at the Walgreens, it was almost $9 for only 60 caps! Can you believe that?!
But they were the only BC I could find locally so I bought them. I'm about halfway through them I think and don't want to run out so I did some shopping on ebay and got 200 BC caps for $15 w/free shipping!
I'm also getting a little nervous about my Red Clover supply as I can't find them locally either so I've spotted a good deal on some of them too on ebay but I have to wait until I get paid to order because I don't want to go overdrawn!
I also saw a lot of other herbs there that have been mentioned here. As time goes on I may experiment and rotate through various herbs so that my body gets a variety of phtyos. I'm hoping for more than just breasts, I want the rest of my body to feminize too.
So far, I'm satisfied that what I'm taking IS getting me results so I want to keep on the course.
My tits are not as pointy now, they are getting a little plumpness to them that seems to be rounding out some of the pointyness. Being rounder like they are becoming and hidden under two layers of shirts it might appear that I'm just a little thick chested. Being a few pounds overweight goes a long way towards the disguise. That and walking sort of bent over. Everyone knows I'm in pain so walking bent over is normal for me anyway. I think I can get away with a little more than I had initially had thought. I don't know what cup size I'm going to say I'll stop at, I'll just cut waaaay down on the herbs once I reach a size that I think is just at crossing the danger line into the red zone (where it's a chore to disguise them)..
I'm surprised at how fast this seems to be going. Too bad I didn't know about this stuff 25 years ago! Had I known then what I know now I would have long ago made a total transition.
Ta Ta's for now! ( . )( . )
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waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 1:49 PM
I have the source of the article listed on the information on herbs thread. This is a very authentic and scientific study whose original intent was to estimate the effect of these herbs on breast cancer.
No, it does not list all the herbs in NBE and some of the herbs listed are VERY toxic. Yes, mistletoe and bloodroot can kill you - this was not a suggestion for NBE -it mearly answered a question about estrogen equivalents in some phytoestrogens. There are two herbs used all the time in NBE, red clover and licorice. They have some of the highest estrogen equivalent values. Keep in mind if a NBE herb is not listed that does not mean anything but that the study did not test that herb. -Remember the original intent of the article had nothing to do with NBE.
As far as the information listed in muscle magazines, in my research, I have found they most often list some of the newest scientific studies - they quote them accurately and make very cogent statements in reference to them. This does not imply that all the information in mucle magazines is well thought out - however, after researching through literally hundreds of sources on the topic of nutrition I can tell you that many of the best articles can be found in those publications.
My intent in placing this article in the information on herbs thread was to help people make informed choices. I believe that most people on this forum don't even know that thread exists. I am in the process of compiling a list of NBE herbs and their estrogen values. It is a very daunting task because there is very little accurate information out there - and there is a lot of contradictory information. If I am persistant, perhaps I can come up with a list that will be helpful to those trying to increase or limit the amount of estrogen they are ingesting.
Unfortunately, (I can anticipate it now) no matter how complete my list or how accurate my information, someone will misinterpret it and think I am suggesting they take all these herbs together... or someone else will think I am saying to take only the top ones, or the bottom ones... or someones favorite herb will be missing or it won't be listed in the order they think it should be... lol
I will persist mostly because I want to know. I will let you know when the list is complete.
waxingmoon
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Blu-jay
(no login) Waxingmoon April 11 2007, 2:33 PM
Thanks for posting that info and all your work finding that info. That is exactly the type of info I was looking for. I realize that more reseach needs to be done about this but it definitly helps.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 3:01 PM
I didn't mean to come across as critical of you Waxingmoon. I was just wondering about the article and how credible the source was. It does contradict a lot of other info seen before and I was just curious about what study they based it on.
I hope I didn't upset you WM. And I'm sure that you wouldn't advice anyone to poison themselves *giggle*
We all want to find out the truth.
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Blu-jay
(no login) Twinklepose April 11 2007, 3:39 PM
Unfortunatly Twink, I do believe that this nbe stuff & feminizing will effect the parts below.I honestly can't beleive,with the research that I've done, That it wouldn't change something down there. This doesn't mean Mr.Johnson will curl up and die. It means that spontaneous erections will diminish eventually disapear,Erections will be more difficult to achieve. Orgasms will take longer to achieve. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, your Partner may just have to work a little harder to help things along which could mean more foreplay. More foreplay = better sex. Orgasms could end up being more intense. Nbe & feminizing will also make you more sensitive also not a bad thing. As long as there's a certain amount of testosterone It should be OK Just things would slow down a little. Blu-jay
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Anon Man
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 12 2007, 11:43 PM
Soon I hope to start up, but I am still learning and digesting all this information. I just don't want to rush into it just yet. I do want to take SP and Fennel or FG but in lower dosages. TB strongly recommends the Progesterone Creme. And he seems to have FANTASTIC results! So how long would you recommend taking them? Is 2 months on, one week off OK?
Also women have more obvious cycles; there is a definite start and end. From Eva's board it seems like you want to time taking herbs and your 'break' with your cycle. Most women believe men do not have cycles. I am starting to believe we have very very mild cycles. It's just not as noticeable. Perhaps Fennel can help here and give some welcome insight.If true, then maybe we need to adjust our regimen??
Well at least I am glad that the herbs mentioned above are not on Waxingmoons list for toxic herbs.
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waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 13 2007, 1:48 PM
Fennel Fairy,
No offense taken here. I am glad you question the authenticity of the information and I wish more people would. I am often stunned at how easily some will accept information as valid without checking it out in the slightest. I am always willing to offer my sources and appreciate it when others list the source or the link to their information.
Yeah, I struggle in trying not to poison people... lol. Seriously, I have to think very hard about what I post to come up with even half of the ways it will be mis-interpreted. (please, no offense to anyone on here- I'm not talking specific, just general) On the main forum I have posted about progesterone cream several times and each time there will be a follow up post from someone who does not quite get what I am saying and has come up with a clever way to really mess themselves up with it or use it in a way that is totally ineffective. Practically each time I talk about PC I list one of my favorite sources: Dr. John Lee - who pioneered estrogen dominance research. I am not sure that anyone has gone to the trouble of looking up one of his many books. I guess my thought is if you participate on a bulletin board, you CAN read, so my mistake is thinking that people will willingly read a book or an article... Ah well, I could go on about this pet peeve all day long, but I have some research to do and these boobs aren't going to massage themselves... lol.
waxingmoon
Blu-jay
(no login) Waxingmoon & Fennel Fairy April 13 2007, 3:04 PM
Yes there is alot of contradictory info out there. You can find 5 articles that say one thing, 5 that say the opposit and 5 that are in between. It can drive you nuts! You always end up asking yourself who's right who's wrong. That's why the info you posted is so appreciated. Sometimes we have no clue as where to even look for this kind of information. There isn't alot of info about guys doing this kind of thing. We are basicaly our own Lab Rats. So sometimes the most reliable info. for us, is found on TS web sites. It's nice to have leads to reliable info that can be followed up on. You ladies are wonderful. Thanks
April 9 2007 at 6:23 PM Blu-jay (no login)
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TS girls usualy take about 6mg of estrogen (estradoil,Estrace or premarin)plus antiandrogens and progesterone daily. Does anybody know what those amounts would be using phyto estrogens? Phytoestrogens are much weaker than estrogens.If they mimic or act like estrogens there must be an equal amount or close to that? This info isn't easy to find.I've been searching and not comming up with anything solid. Does anybody have any info or links about this? (estrogen = phytoesrogens) have any of you ever checked into this? Thanks
Author Reply
Moonstruck
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 9 2007, 7:39 PM
I dunno.
But what I do know is that what I'm taking IS working for me. YMMV.
Three times a days I take herbs, about every 8 hours.
Daily doses:
Soy Lecithin - 6 caplets, 1200mg each = 7,200mg per day
Saw Palmetto - 6 caplets, 450mg each = 2,700mg per day
Red Clover - 6 caplets, 500mg each = 3,000mg per day
Black Cohosh - 3 caplets, 80mg each = 240mg per day
Total = 13,140mg of phytoestrogens I consume each and every day.
Plus, the following
Prilosec - 1 per day, 20mg - documented to cause gynecomastia!
Note: I'm not taking the prilosec by choice, I MUST take it, I have severe acid reflux. I've been taking various AR medications for about 10 years now, I'm 100% certain that they are what actually jump started my gyn in the first place. MOST acid reflux medications list gynecomastia as a side effect. I don't think Prilosec is a phytoestrogen, I don't really know what or why it does, I just know that yes, it does cause it, I have no doubt of that. Also know this, none of the OTC Acid Reflux medications tell you that they can cause gyn anywhere on the package or in the included information sheet inside the box.
The only way you find out is when after you've been taking the stuff for a long time you slowly begin to realize you're growing tits. Then you start to wonder "Why am I growing tits?" and you look up "bitch tits" online. After a few days of research you end up suspecting the stomach medicine you've been taking daily for years. A trip to the manufactures website you find the word gynecomastia listed as a side effect. 99% of people have never heard of that before and have no idea what it is. Thing is, they don't warn you of this via the packaging, you have to find it out the hard way.
However, you can either taking this as a total disaster or a blessing. Depends on your point of view.
I don't know how this would compare to real hormone consumption. I think it would be safe to say that if one could consume that amount of real hormones one would have titties you would have to transport in a wheelbarrow..
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TB
(no login) What you goal is. April 10 2007, 4:27 AM
I think that tranny are really trying to drop their testosterone levels for reason that have nothing to do with breast enhancement. If you are trying to do a sex change that is one thing. I just wanted female breasts. I have a ver high testosterone level and still have big breasts. I don't think you need to lower you Testosterone level. You need to direct whatever esotrogen/phytoestrogen to your boobs and the progesterone ceam rubbed onto them will help that. Extra testosterone in a males body is turned into estrogen, so you can direct that to your boobs. That is why body builders get boobs. Lowering you testosterone levels can really create problems for a man, osteoporosis and extreme tiredness. Why go thu that.
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waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 2:43 PM
Here is something I posted a while ago in the information on herbs thread. It was taken from a muscle building article for men on how to avoid estrogen (to avoid its interference with testosterone). Table 1 lists the micrograms but it needs to be compared to Table 2 which shows the estrogenic potential of these herbs. Apparently many of the herbs are very estrogenic at low doses and some of the herbs are even more estrogenic than estrogen itself. Because of this I don't think you will be able to say that a certain gram amount of an herb will equal an exact amount of estrogen. However, you can certainly determine which phytoestrogens will have a greater estrogen effect. Of course this is not a complete list. I am trying to compile that on the main forum.
Micrograms of Estradiol Equivalents/200 cc or 2 gm Dry Herb
Soy milk 8/200cc
Yucca 0.5
Licorice 4/2 gm
Tumeric 0.5
Red Clover 3
Hops 0.5
Mandrake 3
Verbenna 0.5
Bloodroot 2
Yellow Dock 0.5
Thyme 2
Sheep sorrel 0.5
It is important to understand that just because a food, herb or spice has ER binding capability, it does not mean that it inhibits estrogen formation or acts as a natural aromatase inhibitor. In fact, the total opposite is true. In short, Table 1 indicates that the 12 listed agents have estrogenic activity at low physiological doses.
Table 2 lists the results of the research examining the effects of the herbs on ER (+) breast cancer cells. Any herb or spice with a score above 400 has greater estrogenic activity than estradiol.
TABLE 2
Effects of ER(estrogen receptor) binding herbs on ER (+) Breast Cancer Cells
Coumestrol 2500
Licorice 1600
Jumiper 100
Bloodroot 0
Red Clover 3000
Nutmeg 200
Mistletoe 500
White Clover 500
Dong Quai 200
Yucca 2600
Thyme 2
Damiana 200
Table 2 indicates that coumestrol, red clover, mistletoe, don quai, hops, licorice, white clover, yucca and motherwort are more estrogenic than estradiol!
By the way, with some of these herbs there is a nasty toxicity potential too, so be sure to research thoroughly before you take them.
Hope this was some help,
waxingmoon
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Blu-jay
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 2:59 PM
Thanks Guys for your input.I was just curious about Phyto-estrogens and real estrogens and their simularities. I take peuraria mirifica 1000 mgs. daily with EPO (an estrogen promoter) and some vitamins. The Peuraria similar in structure to Estradoil. It seems to be working for me but Its still early. I want to grow boobs and feminize to a certain point but I don't want to go the "Full Montey" If you know what I mean.. Happy growing guys!
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twinklepose
(Login twinklepose)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 5:34 PM
Hi Blu-Jay, I'm also taking PM - have been for about a month now and have ordered another month's worth.
I was interested in what you said about it being similar to Estradoil. I don't want to feminise "all the way" either and I want to keep things working "down there"! You don't think there's any risk of impotence from PM do you?
I've certainly had no problems yet - but as I stated in an earlier thread, my orgasms do feel quite different.
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Moonstruck
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 8:30 PM
Careful! Mistletoe is a deadly poison! I would steer way away from that one.
There's just so many other things out there that not only safer but more beneficial towards our goals.
Mistletoe is bad news. I wouldn't take it for any reason ever!
As for orgasms, yes, they are different. It's very weird. I don't want to get graphic but they are stronger, longer and much more intense but different. And output is greatly increased, 3-4 times as much as it was before. It's like it was when I was 18 years old, maybe even better. That's weird to me considering what I'm doing to my system now. I remember when I was about 24 and I stole some birth control pills from my live in lover, after taking them for a month it pretty much shut down my male functions. Erections were almost impossible and orgasms were bone dry. It scared me pretty badly so I stopped taking them and a few weeks later things seemed to return to normal.
On the other hand now, I don't think about sex as often lately.
What's weird, when I was a kid I would get all excited putting on women's clothes. Now I get all excited when I take them off!
It's like when I sit down on the edge of the bed at night and take my bra off for bed, I sort of rub my tits and massage them to relieve myself of the bra annoyances and that's usually what gets me excited. Having a more feminized body IS a sexy turn on.
Ta TA's for now, and forever more! ( . )( . )
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 8:51 PM
It's not only mistletoe that is poisonous - Bloodroot is poisonous too! And an overdose of nutmeg can also poison a person - in cooking you use very small amounts.
I think that a lot of people on these boards have no idea what it is they are taking.
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Blu-jay
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 10 2007, 10:04 PM
Hmmmm. who's taking mistle toe?
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A
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 1:30 AM
Can you explain the Soy milk 8/200cc and the Dong Quai 200 again? I don't know if I follow. Soy milk is a good thing to drink several times a day??
And since Fennel, Fenugreek and Saw Palmetto are not in Table 1 or Table 2, then they are non toxic and safe to take? Do they increase your risk for male breast cancer?
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A
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 2:38 AM
Actually a better question would be, "How do you reduce risk of male BC when using herbs?" Fennel, if I recall, women BC is more linked to high estrogen? But for males to grow breasts, we have to increase our estrogen too.
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Blu-jay
(no login) A April 11 2007, 5:49 AM
There are good estrogens and bad estrogens.The good are more like estradoil which is the main estrogen produced by the ovaries.There 2 more estrogens that are the ones linked to breast cancer. I'm not sure what they're called. I have that info written down somewhere and I will post it when I find it. High testosterone can also cause cancers being: prostrate cancer,cancer in the testicles and in the penis itself. They are due to bad testosterone. This testosterone is called dihydrotestosterone. Increasing your estrogen levels does not mean that you will get breast cancer. Taking artificial hormones will increase the chances of getting Breast C. Like ones produced in Labs or the ones made out of horse Pee. Naturals (herbs, phytoestrogens) are safer to use but they can also be dangerous. There's always some risk. Hope this helps a bit.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Waxing Moon April 11 2007, 6:51 AM
Did you find that the article taken from a muscle building article had any reliable source information? I don't completely trust that list, it doesn't seem to make sense. Perhaps they have misinterpreted some study they read?
Other than that, I wish everyone good luck with the herbs.
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Moonstruck
(Login moonstruck61) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 7:47 AM
I was pretty angry about the price of BC at the Walgreens, it was almost $9 for only 60 caps! Can you believe that?!
But they were the only BC I could find locally so I bought them. I'm about halfway through them I think and don't want to run out so I did some shopping on ebay and got 200 BC caps for $15 w/free shipping!
I'm also getting a little nervous about my Red Clover supply as I can't find them locally either so I've spotted a good deal on some of them too on ebay but I have to wait until I get paid to order because I don't want to go overdrawn!
I also saw a lot of other herbs there that have been mentioned here. As time goes on I may experiment and rotate through various herbs so that my body gets a variety of phtyos. I'm hoping for more than just breasts, I want the rest of my body to feminize too.
So far, I'm satisfied that what I'm taking IS getting me results so I want to keep on the course.
My tits are not as pointy now, they are getting a little plumpness to them that seems to be rounding out some of the pointyness. Being rounder like they are becoming and hidden under two layers of shirts it might appear that I'm just a little thick chested. Being a few pounds overweight goes a long way towards the disguise. That and walking sort of bent over. Everyone knows I'm in pain so walking bent over is normal for me anyway. I think I can get away with a little more than I had initially had thought. I don't know what cup size I'm going to say I'll stop at, I'll just cut waaaay down on the herbs once I reach a size that I think is just at crossing the danger line into the red zone (where it's a chore to disguise them)..
I'm surprised at how fast this seems to be going. Too bad I didn't know about this stuff 25 years ago! Had I known then what I know now I would have long ago made a total transition.
Ta Ta's for now! ( . )( . )
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waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 1:49 PM
I have the source of the article listed on the information on herbs thread. This is a very authentic and scientific study whose original intent was to estimate the effect of these herbs on breast cancer.
No, it does not list all the herbs in NBE and some of the herbs listed are VERY toxic. Yes, mistletoe and bloodroot can kill you - this was not a suggestion for NBE -it mearly answered a question about estrogen equivalents in some phytoestrogens. There are two herbs used all the time in NBE, red clover and licorice. They have some of the highest estrogen equivalent values. Keep in mind if a NBE herb is not listed that does not mean anything but that the study did not test that herb. -Remember the original intent of the article had nothing to do with NBE.
As far as the information listed in muscle magazines, in my research, I have found they most often list some of the newest scientific studies - they quote them accurately and make very cogent statements in reference to them. This does not imply that all the information in mucle magazines is well thought out - however, after researching through literally hundreds of sources on the topic of nutrition I can tell you that many of the best articles can be found in those publications.
My intent in placing this article in the information on herbs thread was to help people make informed choices. I believe that most people on this forum don't even know that thread exists. I am in the process of compiling a list of NBE herbs and their estrogen values. It is a very daunting task because there is very little accurate information out there - and there is a lot of contradictory information. If I am persistant, perhaps I can come up with a list that will be helpful to those trying to increase or limit the amount of estrogen they are ingesting.
Unfortunately, (I can anticipate it now) no matter how complete my list or how accurate my information, someone will misinterpret it and think I am suggesting they take all these herbs together... or someone else will think I am saying to take only the top ones, or the bottom ones... or someones favorite herb will be missing or it won't be listed in the order they think it should be... lol
I will persist mostly because I want to know. I will let you know when the list is complete.
waxingmoon
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Blu-jay
(no login) Waxingmoon April 11 2007, 2:33 PM
Thanks for posting that info and all your work finding that info. That is exactly the type of info I was looking for. I realize that more reseach needs to be done about this but it definitly helps.
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 11 2007, 3:01 PM
I didn't mean to come across as critical of you Waxingmoon. I was just wondering about the article and how credible the source was. It does contradict a lot of other info seen before and I was just curious about what study they based it on.
I hope I didn't upset you WM. And I'm sure that you wouldn't advice anyone to poison themselves *giggle*
We all want to find out the truth.
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Blu-jay
(no login) Twinklepose April 11 2007, 3:39 PM
Unfortunatly Twink, I do believe that this nbe stuff & feminizing will effect the parts below.I honestly can't beleive,with the research that I've done, That it wouldn't change something down there. This doesn't mean Mr.Johnson will curl up and die. It means that spontaneous erections will diminish eventually disapear,Erections will be more difficult to achieve. Orgasms will take longer to achieve. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, your Partner may just have to work a little harder to help things along which could mean more foreplay. More foreplay = better sex. Orgasms could end up being more intense. Nbe & feminizing will also make you more sensitive also not a bad thing. As long as there's a certain amount of testosterone It should be OK Just things would slow down a little. Blu-jay
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Anon Man
(no login) Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 12 2007, 11:43 PM
Soon I hope to start up, but I am still learning and digesting all this information. I just don't want to rush into it just yet. I do want to take SP and Fennel or FG but in lower dosages. TB strongly recommends the Progesterone Creme. And he seems to have FANTASTIC results! So how long would you recommend taking them? Is 2 months on, one week off OK?
Also women have more obvious cycles; there is a definite start and end. From Eva's board it seems like you want to time taking herbs and your 'break' with your cycle. Most women believe men do not have cycles. I am starting to believe we have very very mild cycles. It's just not as noticeable. Perhaps Fennel can help here and give some welcome insight.If true, then maybe we need to adjust our regimen??
Well at least I am glad that the herbs mentioned above are not on Waxingmoons list for toxic herbs.
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waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Estrogens & Phytoestrogens April 13 2007, 1:48 PM
Fennel Fairy,
No offense taken here. I am glad you question the authenticity of the information and I wish more people would. I am often stunned at how easily some will accept information as valid without checking it out in the slightest. I am always willing to offer my sources and appreciate it when others list the source or the link to their information.
Yeah, I struggle in trying not to poison people... lol. Seriously, I have to think very hard about what I post to come up with even half of the ways it will be mis-interpreted. (please, no offense to anyone on here- I'm not talking specific, just general) On the main forum I have posted about progesterone cream several times and each time there will be a follow up post from someone who does not quite get what I am saying and has come up with a clever way to really mess themselves up with it or use it in a way that is totally ineffective. Practically each time I talk about PC I list one of my favorite sources: Dr. John Lee - who pioneered estrogen dominance research. I am not sure that anyone has gone to the trouble of looking up one of his many books. I guess my thought is if you participate on a bulletin board, you CAN read, so my mistake is thinking that people will willingly read a book or an article... Ah well, I could go on about this pet peeve all day long, but I have some research to do and these boobs aren't going to massage themselves... lol.
waxingmoon
Blu-jay
(no login) Waxingmoon & Fennel Fairy April 13 2007, 3:04 PM
Yes there is alot of contradictory info out there. You can find 5 articles that say one thing, 5 that say the opposit and 5 that are in between. It can drive you nuts! You always end up asking yourself who's right who's wrong. That's why the info you posted is so appreciated. Sometimes we have no clue as where to even look for this kind of information. There isn't alot of info about guys doing this kind of thing. We are basicaly our own Lab Rats. So sometimes the most reliable info. for us, is found on TS web sites. It's nice to have leads to reliable info that can be followed up on. You ladies are wonderful. Thanks