27-08-2011, 01:11 PM
To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens
October 4 2007 at 7:14 AM Davilee (Login Davi-lee)
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My question awhile back was about how women can use such strong supplemental estrogens and it doesnt affect the liver...I just dont hear any women talking about it,so I assumed its not a problem for them.
AND the counterpoint is why males and females are told to be careful of the (wimpy) P-estrogenics and how they'll overwhelm your receptors if you take too much.....
**WHILE** MtF TSers take very strong estrogens and go right along like everythings dandy. ..except they are told to watch out for liver toxicity.
Why dont they have any "stall" or receptor overload??
They are taking larger amounts of estrogens,,,why doesnt it cause their receptors to just shut down and not utilize the estrogenics??
It doesnt make sense.Im not getting some little important point I guess.
Author Reply
Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 4 2007, 9:24 AM
Well I know a lot of mtf girls that take synthetics and they almost all complain about not getting good breast development and almost no fat redistribution in the lower half. A LOT of mtf girls have no hips, no thighs. They appear to have a make physique, their dresses just hang on them like sacks. You would think they would resort to hip pads to try to improve the image.
Personally I have a plan laid out and in the near future I'm having an orchi. I'm not going to play silly games.
I've talked to and seen mtf women that kept everything intact until the moment of SRS and they just don't develop well.
But the women that got an orchi early on were able to blossom out in all areas, quickly, early and the results were more than satisfactory. And they had no regrets. That's going to be my way too.
If you are young you can get away with high doses and develop really nicely.
If you are older like me, you can't safely take high doses and you should not expect good results.
But if you eliminate the androgen factory (snip-snip) no matter what your age, you can take low doses and expect good results.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 4 2007, 10:22 PM
M2Fs. For the first 5 years of HRT, it's like you're going through puberty.So the body will take what it can since the androgens are being blocked.After the 5 years, they will sort of stall.The body can only develope so much,then the rest of E would be for maintaining the developement. That's why it's not recommended to take hrt for mor than the 5 years without having an orchi or srs. After that your meds can be cut by 1/2 and your AAs can be elminated.
Now GGs don't nearly have to take the doses that GMs have to take, because their body is kind of a Estrogen manufacturing and processing plant. GMs have alot poison/poisoning to overcome. That's why the higher doses for a shorter periode of time. It's complicated. I hope I'm making some kind of sense here. I'm not sure that I answered your question but it kind of explains that M2Fs will eventually stall and you can't keep taking those high doses for a longer periode of time with out it effecting the liver.
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gingerD
(Login gingerD)
SENIOR MEMBER Davilee October 5 2007, 11:16 AM
Hi Davilee,i don't think im answering your question properly sorry but you have go me thinking (bare with me and read on:
My BC is alittle different to BCP i have the implanon which releases a steady stream of a femaletype hormone into the bloodstream,my own doctor told me i could grow breasts with "the pill MG30" at the same time as my implant,id gone to see if i could have the synthetic hormones u guys take,but she said no it would be very dangerous as my body already produces estrogen where as you guys dont and the synthetic hormones would be much 2 strong(i thauhgt it would be dangerous to be taking 2 kinds of contraceptive pill as well as WU at the time so i didnt use the MG30 (which i thaught was a strong estrogenic BC)
But now you have got me thinking and i would like your veiws the implanon contains:
The 40 mm by 2 mm Implanon rod contains 68 milligrams of the gonane progestin etonogestrel which is released over a three year period.
gonane =chemical structure of steroids
the term progestin refers only to synthetic progestational steroids
Etonogestrel is a synthetic form of the naturally occurring female sex hormone, progesterone
So basically my BC=PROGESTERONE if i had taken the MG30 which=Estrogen would this have ballanced me out?????=growth
and now im taking PM which is estrogenic am i balancing myself out now.
If im correct in my thinking the premade pills with a number of herbs in could have been knocking me further off balance as they could have contained to many progesterones?? which =STALLING
Could i have found the answer to my problem?
Davilee you could have just saved my tits
lol
p.check out this link its very intersting:
http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/chemfoodhert.html
This message has been edited by gingerD on Oct 5, 2007 11:30 AM
This message has been edited by gingerD on Oct 5, 2007 11:23 AM
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) I will try to answer your questions DaviLee: October 5 2007, 6:39 PM
Why can women use such strong supplemental estrogens and it doesnt affect the liver?
Answer: We don't. I just had a look on my birth control pills, and they are the "stronger" type (combination pill with both progestine and estradiol). They contain 250 microgram progestine and 35 microgram etinylestradiol per pill and day.
Why are males and females told to be careful of the (wimpy) phytoestrogenics because they'll overwhelm the estrogen receptors if you take too much?
Answer: It's not about the strenght or potency of the product, it's about AMOUNT of phytoestrogen molecules compared to amount of estrogen molecules competing about the space. Compare the effect of taking 35 microgram estradiol per day and taking several THOUSANDS OF MILIGRAMS of perhaps six or seven different phytoestrogens daily. You can only fit a certain number of people into a Volkswagen.
MtF TSers take very strong estrogens and go right along like everythings dandy. ..except they are told to watch out for liver toxicity. Why dont they have any "stall" or receptor overload?
Answer: Since they don't produce the same amount of estrogen as a female body does, they are able to take higher doses of a stronger medical product than biological females would be able to take without stalling, but such high doses will damage the liver in the long run. No biological woman get that amount of estrogen through birth control pills. It's like comparing vodka with beer.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 6 2007, 2:06 AM
Question.
(remember us backwards americans don't get it with metrics)
The stuff I'm currently taking contains the following;
Ethinylestradiol ………. 0.035 mg
is that a lot? Strong? Weak? I dunno. The pills are *tiny* itty-bitty....
How does that compare to herbals or Porcine Ovary?
I don't get the "mg" thing, it just doesn't click in my brain.
Thanks.
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This message has been edited by moonstruck61 on Oct 6, 2007 2:07 AM
This message has been edited by moonstruck61 on Oct 6, 2007 2:07 AM
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Same dose October 6 2007, 8:26 AM
One of your pills are the same as one of mine in therms of estrogenic content. 35 microgram = 0.035 milligram. So you and I are basically taking the same stuff apart from my BCP containing progestine also. The progestine probably balances out any negative effects of the estradiol.
The thing is, TS people usually do not take just ONE pill a day of the ones you are on, do they?
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 6 2007, 9:42 AM
Oh, probably not. Younger folks can get away with it.
People in my age range usually avoid EE because of DVT dangers.
That's why I'm only taking ONE per day.
I want to go through the two months on the stuff and see if I get any results or not.
I suspect that I'll probably not see any major changes, just the slow progression forward as usual.
I think once this stuff runs out I'll just resume and stick to the PO as I know I've gotten some very surprising results from it and because it's probably safer on my system.
Oh and thank you for the help on the metrics. I'm rather dense on that.
Also, I suspect you have a lot more in your system than me, you have your natural E that your body makes, plus the pill plus any herbals or BO/PO you are taking..
I just have the once source going on with me..
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Yes... October 6 2007, 12:34 PM
I have more estrogen in my system altogether. There is a risk of DVT with BCP and there is an equal risk for you with the pills you are taking, so it's a wise decision to not overdo it. However, I never grew boobs being on BCP.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Morticia! October 6 2007, 4:26 PM
I would recommend taking a daily low dose of asperine.One a day is all you need. You can buy them any drudstore/walmart. They contain 81 mgs. of asperine.Instead of the asperine brand you can also use ASA daily low dose,which does the same thing and it's a fair bit cheaper. This helps in keeping the blood thinner and reduces the chance of clots building up. My Doc recommended that to me, even before I was on hrt.
Don't forget to take your vitamin C, Hrt can deplete vitamin C. I take 500mgs daily plus the fruits and vegetables I eat in my regular diet.I also take a good multi vitamin/mineral complexe. These things help in 'reducing' any risks that may develope while on Hrt.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 7 2007, 7:28 AM
I take aspirin anyway because of my constant migraines. I take a good bit more than one wimpy tablet.
I also take C.. The instructions that came in the BCP's I'm taking now inform you that large doses of C boost estrogen levels and turn a low dose pill into a high dose pill. I posted about it a few weeks ago..
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Hi All!!! October 7 2007, 3:40 PM
Hey All, thanks for the info,and advice.
Wow....there is just so much to respond to here....my brain has got several tangents going....
I have this feeling that Im not satisfied with the info that I have collected,like there is still a hidden interrelationship between the hormones that Im just not seeing yet.
First,Morticia and Blu-jay..I have a book on supplements for preventing blood platelet aggregation....keeping the blood thin and no unnecessary clumping.
The doc said the international research shows that fish oils and cayenne pepper powder,are the best things for preventing blood aggregation.
They both effectively cleanse the arteries of plaques and prevent clots and cause the bad cholesterols to be removed.Cayenne actually prevents and heals atheriosclerosis and hardening of the arteries.
The book by Dr.William Christopher,is great.
He totally turned around his failing circulatory system by adding cayenne to his diet.He had hardening and hyperdilated arteries.He had some serious heart problems.He totally recovered in 1-2 years taking cayenne pepper everyday.
Fish oil lowers blood serum cholesterols and lubricates the blood basically,preventing the cell membranes from chemically adhereing to one another. As little as 4-5 grams a day or 2-3 teaspoons(10-15ml),will give you proper results.
Other EFA's will help with that also.(essential fatty acids)
Cayenne..you should take about 3-4 capsules a day if you dont have any chronic cardiac conditions, one of my customers was on a program by his doc to remove arterial plaques and he was supposed to take 5-6 caps a day.
Take it with a meal,or like three times a day.Its most effective when a constant small level is continued.
You can find a product called CoolCayenne by Solaray,it is buffered so it doesnt cause irritation.It comes in different strengths or Scovill Heat Units,just like how they rate any pepper "hotness".
I just by a good grade of cayenne powder and I buy empty caps all the time anyway and I just fill my own caps.
Take the pills with a little milk and you'll be dandy.No irritation.Milk is the only thing that shuts down the chemical that causes the burning.
Cayenne is a really chemically interesting spice.It does all kinds of things,related to pain receptors.
Even though it causes burning,it also has a property that shuts off pain receptors.It also actually heals stomach and intestinal ulcers,due to the operation of enhancing mucous production.It also,kills bad intestinal bacteria.It boosts the immune system and stimulates the body to destroy viruses and bacteria.
Aspirin has many problems associated with it that most people arent even aware of.Its due to high doses.
An enzyme that platelets produce that in turn produces thromboxane,it causes platelets to adhere together and clump and causes blood vessels to constrict.
Aspirin blocks that enzyme in the platelets.
The problem is that enzyme also produces prostacyclin in vessel walls.That chemical causes platelets to unclump and it dilates blood vessels.
So,aspirin blocks the prostacyclin and thus limits the thrombosis reduction effects of the blocking of the thromboxane.
So, the studies show that low dose of 20mg...1/4 of a childs aspirin,will be enough to block thromboxane.
What was found was that the thromboxane production of the cells is slower to recover due to the fact that once the platelets are dosed they dont ever make anymore,so new platelets will make it as they are produced,WHILE the blood vessel cells *can make new enzyme and thus prostacyclin recovers more quickly.
Also,with low dose the liver can clean it out of the blood faster and thus it effects the blood platelets and not so much the blood vessels wall cells.
I dont know if that made any sense to you,,I just finally figured out part of it myself,as I misread a phrase originally.Now it makes sense to me now.
Okay,I understand what you all are saying about the hormones.
Ive noticed that it just depends on the individual.Some TS m2f have good results even not getting castrated.It just depends on your body and genetics it seems.I know a TS gal on Tribes that has had no serious work at all done to herself and she looks incredible.I asked her if she had any tweaking on her face and she said no,she just has been on HT. Some people are just blessed by the right genes.She mustve looked very androgenous to begin with.
Well,she's a rare example,I know that....but I have come across several TS gals that Ive talked to on Tribes that havent really done any restructuring of the genitals and they just do hormones and such and they are quite passable.
It really helps to have a nice facial structure to begin with...Im genetically cursed as far as that goes...my Dads side has some particularly crappy facial characteristics,my sis's are cursed with them too,so I dont feel *too* bad.If I could get a nose bridge tweaking,I would look a lot better,its not huge but is a small bump that my selfcriticism exaggarates into a horrible affliction..hahaha...oh to have a lovely refined gently sloping concave bridge.much better.
Well,to hormone stuff....its sorta blurry as to all the info....
There is just so much that hasnt been discovered as to the interworkings of the hormones and cells and the interactions between the hormones.
Also a factor is the individual and what quantities of the different hormones do they produce themselves.
Like me for instance,I respond very quickly to exogenous estrogen and progesterone hormones,and have had very good effects on my body,but then I also have had more disgusting hair grow on my body...its like my body utilizes estrogens and testosterone equally well and simultaeneously.Its weird. I still havent figured out why my body hair suddenly started changing.It seems that some of my finer hairs turned heavier and darker suddenly.
While most of it is that light super fine female type hair.
Its still disconcerting.
What Ive found about the estradiols is that the ethinyl E.is supposed to be a complete synthetic and all the other variants are just compounded and concentrated from natural plant sources,like wild yam and soya.
They are still from botanicals but just stronger than their natural form.
I still havent had time to go see what how the EE is produced and what it is produced from.
When I get the money Im going to go with injectable estradiol,it totally avoids any problems with the liver,and goes directly into the blood and tissues.And I can inject the small proper amount every couple of days,to achieve the correct doses.It is supposed to be a much better way.
Im not really afraid of needles,I was sick much of my childhood and stuck with big hypodermics at clinics by docs and during hospital stays so much when I was young,It doesnt really bother me to stick myself with little ones.
Thats yahoo group TSDoItYourselfHormones group explains about injectables and where to get supplies and such.If you join they will send you files of source info. about all kinds of links and product sources.
However,the very good fact about getting a docs prescription as opposed to just ordering it yourself from overseas is that the prescr.is WAAAY cheaper.
Of course,ya haveta go to a shrinker and get the mighty blessings from the gatekeepers before you can get the psyche notes for allowing a doc to write you a prescr.Its BS!!!...to be able to "save" money,I have to go and spend a large amount of money on visits to a psychiatrist..total crap.
HelloOoOoOo,,I know my conditions,why do I haveta jump through their hoops.
Its probably cheaper to just go ahead and buy the stuff myself and then have my blood work done by a private lab.(I have info. on that,if anyone wants it,...just give me a yell)
Oh yeah,errr GingerD,,everybody produces estradiol,estriol and progesterone...the only one it seems from what Ive read that males dont make hardly any of is estrone.Of course,it depends on what and where you read stuff.
Oh BTW...Ive read so much on the fact that the synthetic progesterones,>progestins< are not very good in many respects,they dont have the same effects and properties that the natural PROG. does.
Its inferior to be simple about it.
I will recheck the info. I had read about progestins and get back with ya.
AH-HAAAAAA!!!...I just thought of something that may be important,as I was musing over what you and Fennel said and several things that keep popping up in my meditations.....I think that its the Progesterone that is the key.
When I started taking the Estriol/PROG. cream regularly and in a certain sequence with my chosen estrognics, I had really advanced in breast tissue development,,????why???...Im not sure exactly,I just know now that if I load up on estrogenics and lay off the PROG. for a few days then take the PROG.,oh my gosh!!!...I really have some strong reaction pertaining to breast fullness and density and size change.Its really boosted my growth,since finding this out...***of course***,Im still experimenting and havent done this particular program method but two times,so far.It has done the same effect both times so far.
KER-POW!!Ive got real boobs now!!!HAHAHA! XD They are standing out and are dense and have alot of structure to them ....my chest below them is 32" and right across my nipples they are 37"+...Anyway..pardon me for that outburst...hahaha..
Well,I only have part of the key,I can almost grasp the conjunction of my threads of thoughts....there is a common answer that eludes me....like just now,I had it in mind when i said AHHA and then by the time I got into writing it drifted away again....this sucks...Im an airhead...
I know that...estriol and prog. can work together,this I learned from reading about pregnancy hormones.AND the fact that they put it together in HRT creams for menopause.
Progsterone is fat soluble and thus builds up in tissues over time,just like estrogens.
I need to do more study on free-hormones in the blood,>>How long do they stay free until cleaned out?,>>What are the mechanics of the cause of their absorption into fats,and how long does it take to do it??>>What are the stimulators for release of the PROG. from the fats??>>How much can the fats absorb before nonabsorption takes place??>>Can the body change its ability to absorb more PROG. OR EST's??>>Can the ability be changed by inserting the right hormones or stimulating the right hormones??
Its interesting in the literature with my prog.creams it states that women that have estrogen dominance have lower sex drives and adding PROG. will stimulate the sex drive.Also estrogen dominance,can cause migranes.WOW....Ive noticed that since starting the PROG. and doing the proper hormone applications during the full moon period I havent had a single horrible headache at all.Maybe I had too much estrogen during those times,since Ive been boosting and stimulating estrogen production.I have figured out that when I stop taking my strongest est's for a day or two,I will get some new aches and pains all around my chest.
Perhaps musing on this...when the exogenous amounts are stopped,the est's in the tissues are released and hence the jump in activity.
I dont know for sure,yet. Ive been playing with the herbs in my program ,and then running out of certain things on days,,,I need more study to prove my theorys.
I just get so excited to try a new herb,to see what it will do,I dont wait long enough sometimes to stay with a current set.
Im waiting for awhile this time,before changing up.The only thing I really want is more kudzu.
I'd like to try the petunia pig(porky's opposite in Warner Bros,err never mind...) ovaries also.Just for fun,to see what they would do for me.
Or if I get the money Im going right for the hard stuff.
There is probably something that I forgot to mention or comment about,as Im tired.
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gingerD
(Login gingerD)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 9 2007, 10:26 AM
This is what confuses me, i read somthing on a website, i then break it down so i feel i can understand it better and im still wrong, yet its always what i have read.
I don't seem to understand what the hormones in my birth control are or what they do or how knowing what they do will help me either.
Its not you guys but i hate feeling thick its as if my stupid brain cant digest any information with out it being distorted, or that most websites i visit or find are full of ****.
sorry if i got it wrong as usual
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Louise
(no login) Random Info October 12 2007, 11:35 AM
I've been visiting my husband in Hong Kong so sorry it's been a while. I really don't know much about all this but I've been prescribed Dianette for PCO (was using microgynon 30 which really improved my skin but trying the Dianette for hirsutism and hopefully boob growth - although I didn't mention the boobs at the time!). I think under 30ug estrogen pills are considered low dose, 30-35ug normal and 50ug high dose.
Morticia's right in that they contain:
Ethinylestradiol ………. 0.035 mg (estrogen)
Cyproterone acetate BP … 2 mg (antiandrogenic progesterone)
Whereas microgynon contains:
Levonorgestrel 0.15mg
Ethinylestradiol 0.03mg
Which seems like a lot less progesterone....see below.
I was told by the doctor that Dianette has higher vascular risk and higher risk of liver toxicity than othe BCPs but not sure why.
The doctor also said she will review me and consider adding Androcur which is Cyproterone 50mg (loads!) for hirsutism but this you can only do for a limited time due to liver toxicity. Androcur is actually meant for men to combat prostate probs and male pattern baldness.
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This is my post on the main forum relating to this stuff:
This is the response to a question I asked a medical site about progesterone in BCP as I switched brands and noticed there was a large increase in dose of the progesterone component so I wanted to know if it was more progestoronic overall or if the new drug is weaker hence you need more of it:
"You recently asked the NLH Q&A service regarding whether the combined oral contraceptive Dianette (containing 2 mg of the progesterone cyproterone) is more progestogenic than Microgynon (containing 0.15 mg of levonogestrel) and which would be more suitable for women with low circulating progesterone. I am responding to your question as it was referred to London medicines information.
Cyproterone is a progesterone but also has anti-androgenic properties and is therefore preferred for women with acne, oily skin, or hirsutism. Levonorgestrel is also a progesterone but without apparent anti-androgenic activity. As such, whilst both cyproterone and levonorgestrel are potent progesterones a direct comparison in terms of equivalent doses is not available. It is also worth considering that interindividual pharmacokinetic and physiological variation may occur, resulting in 10 fold differences in circulating progesterone in women taking the same formulation of the same pill and sampled at the same time. Such variation is further compounded by differences in target organ sensitivity. Taking this into account it seems suggesting a specific suitable progesterone for a women with low circulating progesterone could only be achieved on an individual basis and may require specialist input."
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So it seems that again it is down to our own individual bodies to make use of the BCP (or not!) and it is pretty much down to luck and genetics whether it helps boob growth or hormonal symptoms.
P.S check out the Noogleberry system
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:22 PM
Oh its not just you Ginger D....I feel muddled also....like the answers are right there in front of me,but I cant fit the puzzle together just right or there is a piece missing yet.You added some good info to these musings.
Thanks Louise. Hmmmmm.....are those synthetic progesterones, or progestins?
Yah,I read that someone said that the USP prog. doesnt affect androgens.
Huhmmmm....perhaps I shall look into these antiandrogen progesterones..
It looks like it would screwup breast development if you are taking progesterones all the time. Unless it is actually developing glandular structures....but there again there's a controversy about whether or not it actually does that in persons over a certain age.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:24 PM
Good info, thank you Louise!
So far I'm not having any ill effects from the Ginette, none that I'm aware of.
I'm taking it sublingually though. Each morning I pop one under my tongue and let it dissolve. There's almost no taste at all, no burning, nothing. Just a little chalky stuff. I leave it under my tongue for about ten minutes, I think that should be enough.
This way it is pretty much bypassing the liver and the risks are much lower than just simply swallowing it.
I also am still taking large doses of Saw Palmetto and a few days ago I began to also take a couple of Ovary caps at night.
I wish I could afford to buy a long term supply of strong Cyproterone but that stuff is expensive.
I have a plan I'm working on that I will likely be able to implement early next year where I won't need any AA's ever again and will only need low dose estrogens from there on out. $1,000 for an orchi and it's done and over with forever.
That would save me a fortune over time and get me better results and one step closer to my ultimate goal.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:38 PM
Hey Morticia!....good update thanks....its good to know how your meds work is doing...it helps me to decide which way I want to go..as to what meds.
damn yeah,a lot of that stuff is so ridiculous $$$ wise,its a ripoff.
Thats why Im considering trying to get a therapist letter of recommendation,for going to a doc who deals with this stuff so I can get cheap prescriptions.
BUUUUT ,there again its how expensive is the therapist and the doc visits going to be,ya know??? It'd probably eat up more of my money doing it that way actually.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:41 PM
That inhousepharmacy.com website is expensive! I thought it'd be cheaper but as I was concerned about safety (and a bit of a wuss!) I went for medical supervision (Morticia - I hope you're going to get a liver test, I was very proud of my little liver's results!). In the UK if you go to the NHS you wait ages but see the doctor and have tests done free, then pay a small charge for the drugs. I went private so I had a great service but have to pay for the doctor's fees, blood tests, ultrasound and drugs. The Dianette brand 3 month supply only cost me £11 in Asda pharmacy which is part of Walmart so shop around a bit - you will need a prescription but this pill is also featured in the sex change section so I don't see why a doctor wouldn't prescribe it for that and maybe they'll monitor your liver too. Or if you have a female friend could she go to a different clinic and ask for this to be given as birth control and then give you the prescriptions. The stronger cyproterone is Androcur (brand name Propecia - you could get a doctor to prescribe this if you could fake male pattern baldness).
As far as I know Cyproterone is synthetic, this is what wiki has to say:
"Cyproterone acetate is a synthetic derivative of 17-hydroxyprogesterone, and acts as an androgen receptor antagonist"
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyproterone
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 9:31 PM
I don't have to fake male pattern baldness.
Problem is, health care in the states is unaffordable to low income people.
We have no system like the rest of the world has.
In the US they worship the almighty dollar as GOD.
Unless you are rich, you die young.
I can't afford to go to a doctor and even if I could, I would not.
I don't like them, I don't trust them.
They don't care about you at all. They exist to bleed you to death financially. They have no interest in helping you or curing you of your ailments. The only thing they cure you of is your cash problem via a walletectomy.
Medicine is VERY unaffordable in the US.. The prices at IHP are CHEAP compared to US prices.
Doctors will not see you unless you have health insurance. That costs average $400 a month.
IF you can find a doctor that will take cash it will cost you $200+ for an office visit, just for a simple exam, IE blood pressure, heart rate, look down your throat, in your ears, etc.. Just the basics only. Anything else and the price skyrockets straight up.
They tell people to get a full physical at like 40 years old and 45 and so on. They mean everything, like a peek up the booty hole, scope down the throat, etc.. A full examine like that can easily run you $6,000...
Like I said, unless you are rich, you die young.
Personally, I don't care anymore. I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm doing it on my own without paying the parasites.
I try to be easy on myself. There may be consequences down the road but oh well..
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Louise
(no login) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 13 2007, 5:39 AM
If you get a liver function test off the internet (they seem to have everything else) I've got the normal lab reference values if you need a comparison. I have to say that I had private medical insurance in a previous job when I first reported symptoms so I should have received all this for free but as my NHS doctor messed about so long I left that job and lost the cover so I've paid just over £600 for the consultation, scan and blood tests, however the medications are cheap £25 for 3 months so in terms of keeping it up shouldn't be too bad. If I'd used the NHS I'd still be waiting to be seen before I could even get a prescription - they saw me once and ordered tests but can't review me for 6 months due to cutbacks. The private system saw me Tuesday after work and I only made the initial enquiry on Friday afternoon so at least I'm getting good service.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 14 2007, 10:49 PM
Like I said before...take Milk thistle extract,Turmeric,Ginger,or licorice.
For liver detoxification,there's other herbs,..I should make a topic list for them. Milk thistle is a liver and kidney cleanser and makes the liver able to process hormones more efficiently.It also stimulates production of new liver cells.
If it can stop liver cancer and cirrhosis and such,I dont see why it it cant strengthen and prevent estrogen from causing damage.Its the build up of toxins in the liver which are the main problem anyway.
If the liver cant function properly in the first place,then if you start loading it up with new estrogens to process,its not going to react well.
Its just going to "clogup" so to speak.
Milk thistle also has anticncer effects for the breasts and prostate tissues.
It also stimulates blood flow into the pelvis and fibrous tissues,such as breast tissues.
So,then hormones should be brought into those areas much more efficiently.
Its such a great herb to help with the hormone work.
Turmeric has many of the same properties and a lot more effects on reducing inflammation amd shutting down potential cancer cells.
In my area,I was quoted a monthly payment for health insurance for self employed as $45.oo.That seems quite cheap compared to what Morticia was talking about;but,I still cant afford it right now.
Doc office visits here are about $40.00.I havent been lately,so Im not exactly sure on that price...Im just going by what my mum and dad's doc visits are.
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Anon
(no login) How much Milk Thistle per day October 15 2007, 2:46 AM
I believe in my previous post I am taking 240 mg. Is that good enough to get the health and NBE benefits ?
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 16 2007, 5:54 AM
Hey,Anon....Oh you should take 600-700 mg of MT extract,for it to have good effects. You cant really overdo it.It wont cause any harm,as far as I have seen.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 22 2007, 8:02 PM
Question.
All this metric stuff confuses me. I just can not process this information.
Some one please help me out here.
I'm trying to get figure out where I am with this.
Ok, here's what another girl posted in another forum about hormones.
********************************************************************
"4 mg of estradiol with the spironolactone is probably sufficiant to bring estradiol and testosterone levels to female range (with me my testosterone was mid to high female level at that very dose 36-76)"
********************************************************************
The 4mg part is what I'm confused about.
I'm taking the Ginette-35
It has:
Ethinylestradiol ………. 0.035 mg (estrogen)
Cyproterone acetate BP … 2 mg (antiandrogenic progesterone)
How does that compare to the 4mg estradiol as mentioned above??
Please forgive me but metrics and math and stuff on the right side of the decimal just confuse the hell out of me.
Thanks..
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 22 2007, 8:33 PM
You're taking 0.035 compared to 4, this is roughly 100x weaker (114 to be exact - God I'm a nerd!) I'm not sure it's as simple as "I want my blood-estrogen to be X amount so I take X amount". I made a an enquiry to a medical site and they referred me on as the progesterone component of Ginette is 2mg compared to 0.15mg (13x stronger) in the Microgynon I took before (and incidentally the Ginette has bought me out in spots!). I wanted to know if cyproterone was a weaker progesterone therefore you need more or if Ginette was a much stronger formulation (I know all the valscular risks are worse with Ginette than any other brand and it's the only brand that can damage the female liver).
This was the reply:
"Cyproterone is a progesterone but also has anti-androgenic properties and is therefore preferred for women with acne, oily skin, or hirsutism. Levonorgestrel is also a progesterone but without apparent anti-androgenic activity. As such, whilst both cyproterone and levonorgestrel are potent progesterones a direct comparison in terms of equivalent doses is not available. It is also worth considering that interindividual pharmacokinetic and physiological variation may occur, resulting in 10 fold differences in circulating progesterone in women taking the same formulation of the same pill and sampled at the same time. Such variation is further compounded by differences in target organ sensitivity. Taking this into account it seems suggesting a specific suitable progesterone for a women with low circulating progesterone could only be achieved on an individual basis and may require specialist input."
So basically it's the luck of the draw what your body does with all this stuff. Maybe you could get a saliva hormone test - really don't want you to up the dosage!
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 24 2007, 2:59 PM
I thought natural indigenous estrogens are measured in micrograms produced per day?? Microgram = 1000th of a gram.?? nG is the shorthand,I think.
Remember estradiol is only 10% of the total estrogens
I know on the DIYHormones group they talk of 80 mg per month,divided down per week or bi weekly.
October 4 2007 at 7:14 AM Davilee (Login Davi-lee)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My question awhile back was about how women can use such strong supplemental estrogens and it doesnt affect the liver...I just dont hear any women talking about it,so I assumed its not a problem for them.
AND the counterpoint is why males and females are told to be careful of the (wimpy) P-estrogenics and how they'll overwhelm your receptors if you take too much.....
**WHILE** MtF TSers take very strong estrogens and go right along like everythings dandy. ..except they are told to watch out for liver toxicity.
Why dont they have any "stall" or receptor overload??
They are taking larger amounts of estrogens,,,why doesnt it cause their receptors to just shut down and not utilize the estrogenics??
It doesnt make sense.Im not getting some little important point I guess.
Author Reply
Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 4 2007, 9:24 AM
Well I know a lot of mtf girls that take synthetics and they almost all complain about not getting good breast development and almost no fat redistribution in the lower half. A LOT of mtf girls have no hips, no thighs. They appear to have a make physique, their dresses just hang on them like sacks. You would think they would resort to hip pads to try to improve the image.
Personally I have a plan laid out and in the near future I'm having an orchi. I'm not going to play silly games.
I've talked to and seen mtf women that kept everything intact until the moment of SRS and they just don't develop well.
But the women that got an orchi early on were able to blossom out in all areas, quickly, early and the results were more than satisfactory. And they had no regrets. That's going to be my way too.
If you are young you can get away with high doses and develop really nicely.
If you are older like me, you can't safely take high doses and you should not expect good results.
But if you eliminate the androgen factory (snip-snip) no matter what your age, you can take low doses and expect good results.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 4 2007, 10:22 PM
M2Fs. For the first 5 years of HRT, it's like you're going through puberty.So the body will take what it can since the androgens are being blocked.After the 5 years, they will sort of stall.The body can only develope so much,then the rest of E would be for maintaining the developement. That's why it's not recommended to take hrt for mor than the 5 years without having an orchi or srs. After that your meds can be cut by 1/2 and your AAs can be elminated.
Now GGs don't nearly have to take the doses that GMs have to take, because their body is kind of a Estrogen manufacturing and processing plant. GMs have alot poison/poisoning to overcome. That's why the higher doses for a shorter periode of time. It's complicated. I hope I'm making some kind of sense here. I'm not sure that I answered your question but it kind of explains that M2Fs will eventually stall and you can't keep taking those high doses for a longer periode of time with out it effecting the liver.
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gingerD
(Login gingerD)
SENIOR MEMBER Davilee October 5 2007, 11:16 AM
Hi Davilee,i don't think im answering your question properly sorry but you have go me thinking (bare with me and read on:
My BC is alittle different to BCP i have the implanon which releases a steady stream of a femaletype hormone into the bloodstream,my own doctor told me i could grow breasts with "the pill MG30" at the same time as my implant,id gone to see if i could have the synthetic hormones u guys take,but she said no it would be very dangerous as my body already produces estrogen where as you guys dont and the synthetic hormones would be much 2 strong(i thauhgt it would be dangerous to be taking 2 kinds of contraceptive pill as well as WU at the time so i didnt use the MG30 (which i thaught was a strong estrogenic BC)
But now you have got me thinking and i would like your veiws the implanon contains:
The 40 mm by 2 mm Implanon rod contains 68 milligrams of the gonane progestin etonogestrel which is released over a three year period.
gonane =chemical structure of steroids
the term progestin refers only to synthetic progestational steroids
Etonogestrel is a synthetic form of the naturally occurring female sex hormone, progesterone
So basically my BC=PROGESTERONE if i had taken the MG30 which=Estrogen would this have ballanced me out?????=growth
and now im taking PM which is estrogenic am i balancing myself out now.
If im correct in my thinking the premade pills with a number of herbs in could have been knocking me further off balance as they could have contained to many progesterones?? which =STALLING
Could i have found the answer to my problem?
Davilee you could have just saved my tits
lolp.check out this link its very intersting:
http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/chemfoodhert.html
This message has been edited by gingerD on Oct 5, 2007 11:30 AM
This message has been edited by gingerD on Oct 5, 2007 11:23 AM
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) I will try to answer your questions DaviLee: October 5 2007, 6:39 PM
Why can women use such strong supplemental estrogens and it doesnt affect the liver?
Answer: We don't. I just had a look on my birth control pills, and they are the "stronger" type (combination pill with both progestine and estradiol). They contain 250 microgram progestine and 35 microgram etinylestradiol per pill and day.
Why are males and females told to be careful of the (wimpy) phytoestrogenics because they'll overwhelm the estrogen receptors if you take too much?
Answer: It's not about the strenght or potency of the product, it's about AMOUNT of phytoestrogen molecules compared to amount of estrogen molecules competing about the space. Compare the effect of taking 35 microgram estradiol per day and taking several THOUSANDS OF MILIGRAMS of perhaps six or seven different phytoestrogens daily. You can only fit a certain number of people into a Volkswagen.
MtF TSers take very strong estrogens and go right along like everythings dandy. ..except they are told to watch out for liver toxicity. Why dont they have any "stall" or receptor overload?
Answer: Since they don't produce the same amount of estrogen as a female body does, they are able to take higher doses of a stronger medical product than biological females would be able to take without stalling, but such high doses will damage the liver in the long run. No biological woman get that amount of estrogen through birth control pills. It's like comparing vodka with beer.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 6 2007, 2:06 AM
Question.
(remember us backwards americans don't get it with metrics)
The stuff I'm currently taking contains the following;
Ethinylestradiol ………. 0.035 mg
is that a lot? Strong? Weak? I dunno. The pills are *tiny* itty-bitty....
How does that compare to herbals or Porcine Ovary?
I don't get the "mg" thing, it just doesn't click in my brain.
Thanks.
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This message has been edited by moonstruck61 on Oct 6, 2007 2:07 AM
This message has been edited by moonstruck61 on Oct 6, 2007 2:07 AM
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Same dose October 6 2007, 8:26 AM
One of your pills are the same as one of mine in therms of estrogenic content. 35 microgram = 0.035 milligram. So you and I are basically taking the same stuff apart from my BCP containing progestine also. The progestine probably balances out any negative effects of the estradiol.
The thing is, TS people usually do not take just ONE pill a day of the ones you are on, do they?
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 6 2007, 9:42 AM
Oh, probably not. Younger folks can get away with it.
People in my age range usually avoid EE because of DVT dangers.
That's why I'm only taking ONE per day.
I want to go through the two months on the stuff and see if I get any results or not.
I suspect that I'll probably not see any major changes, just the slow progression forward as usual.
I think once this stuff runs out I'll just resume and stick to the PO as I know I've gotten some very surprising results from it and because it's probably safer on my system.
Oh and thank you for the help on the metrics. I'm rather dense on that.
Also, I suspect you have a lot more in your system than me, you have your natural E that your body makes, plus the pill plus any herbals or BO/PO you are taking..
I just have the once source going on with me..
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Yes... October 6 2007, 12:34 PM
I have more estrogen in my system altogether. There is a risk of DVT with BCP and there is an equal risk for you with the pills you are taking, so it's a wise decision to not overdo it. However, I never grew boobs being on BCP.
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Blu-Jay
(no login) Morticia! October 6 2007, 4:26 PM
I would recommend taking a daily low dose of asperine.One a day is all you need. You can buy them any drudstore/walmart. They contain 81 mgs. of asperine.Instead of the asperine brand you can also use ASA daily low dose,which does the same thing and it's a fair bit cheaper. This helps in keeping the blood thinner and reduces the chance of clots building up. My Doc recommended that to me, even before I was on hrt.
Don't forget to take your vitamin C, Hrt can deplete vitamin C. I take 500mgs daily plus the fruits and vegetables I eat in my regular diet.I also take a good multi vitamin/mineral complexe. These things help in 'reducing' any risks that may develope while on Hrt.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 7 2007, 7:28 AM
I take aspirin anyway because of my constant migraines. I take a good bit more than one wimpy tablet.
I also take C.. The instructions that came in the BCP's I'm taking now inform you that large doses of C boost estrogen levels and turn a low dose pill into a high dose pill. I posted about it a few weeks ago..
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Hi All!!! October 7 2007, 3:40 PM
Hey All, thanks for the info,and advice.
Wow....there is just so much to respond to here....my brain has got several tangents going....
I have this feeling that Im not satisfied with the info that I have collected,like there is still a hidden interrelationship between the hormones that Im just not seeing yet.
First,Morticia and Blu-jay..I have a book on supplements for preventing blood platelet aggregation....keeping the blood thin and no unnecessary clumping.
The doc said the international research shows that fish oils and cayenne pepper powder,are the best things for preventing blood aggregation.
They both effectively cleanse the arteries of plaques and prevent clots and cause the bad cholesterols to be removed.Cayenne actually prevents and heals atheriosclerosis and hardening of the arteries.
The book by Dr.William Christopher,is great.
He totally turned around his failing circulatory system by adding cayenne to his diet.He had hardening and hyperdilated arteries.He had some serious heart problems.He totally recovered in 1-2 years taking cayenne pepper everyday.
Fish oil lowers blood serum cholesterols and lubricates the blood basically,preventing the cell membranes from chemically adhereing to one another. As little as 4-5 grams a day or 2-3 teaspoons(10-15ml),will give you proper results.
Other EFA's will help with that also.(essential fatty acids)
Cayenne..you should take about 3-4 capsules a day if you dont have any chronic cardiac conditions, one of my customers was on a program by his doc to remove arterial plaques and he was supposed to take 5-6 caps a day.
Take it with a meal,or like three times a day.Its most effective when a constant small level is continued.
You can find a product called CoolCayenne by Solaray,it is buffered so it doesnt cause irritation.It comes in different strengths or Scovill Heat Units,just like how they rate any pepper "hotness".
I just by a good grade of cayenne powder and I buy empty caps all the time anyway and I just fill my own caps.
Take the pills with a little milk and you'll be dandy.No irritation.Milk is the only thing that shuts down the chemical that causes the burning.
Cayenne is a really chemically interesting spice.It does all kinds of things,related to pain receptors.
Even though it causes burning,it also has a property that shuts off pain receptors.It also actually heals stomach and intestinal ulcers,due to the operation of enhancing mucous production.It also,kills bad intestinal bacteria.It boosts the immune system and stimulates the body to destroy viruses and bacteria.
Aspirin has many problems associated with it that most people arent even aware of.Its due to high doses.
An enzyme that platelets produce that in turn produces thromboxane,it causes platelets to adhere together and clump and causes blood vessels to constrict.
Aspirin blocks that enzyme in the platelets.
The problem is that enzyme also produces prostacyclin in vessel walls.That chemical causes platelets to unclump and it dilates blood vessels.
So,aspirin blocks the prostacyclin and thus limits the thrombosis reduction effects of the blocking of the thromboxane.
So, the studies show that low dose of 20mg...1/4 of a childs aspirin,will be enough to block thromboxane.
What was found was that the thromboxane production of the cells is slower to recover due to the fact that once the platelets are dosed they dont ever make anymore,so new platelets will make it as they are produced,WHILE the blood vessel cells *can make new enzyme and thus prostacyclin recovers more quickly.
Also,with low dose the liver can clean it out of the blood faster and thus it effects the blood platelets and not so much the blood vessels wall cells.
I dont know if that made any sense to you,,I just finally figured out part of it myself,as I misread a phrase originally.Now it makes sense to me now.
Okay,I understand what you all are saying about the hormones.
Ive noticed that it just depends on the individual.Some TS m2f have good results even not getting castrated.It just depends on your body and genetics it seems.I know a TS gal on Tribes that has had no serious work at all done to herself and she looks incredible.I asked her if she had any tweaking on her face and she said no,she just has been on HT. Some people are just blessed by the right genes.She mustve looked very androgenous to begin with.
Well,she's a rare example,I know that....but I have come across several TS gals that Ive talked to on Tribes that havent really done any restructuring of the genitals and they just do hormones and such and they are quite passable.
It really helps to have a nice facial structure to begin with...Im genetically cursed as far as that goes...my Dads side has some particularly crappy facial characteristics,my sis's are cursed with them too,so I dont feel *too* bad.If I could get a nose bridge tweaking,I would look a lot better,its not huge but is a small bump that my selfcriticism exaggarates into a horrible affliction..hahaha...oh to have a lovely refined gently sloping concave bridge.much better.
Well,to hormone stuff....its sorta blurry as to all the info....
There is just so much that hasnt been discovered as to the interworkings of the hormones and cells and the interactions between the hormones.
Also a factor is the individual and what quantities of the different hormones do they produce themselves.
Like me for instance,I respond very quickly to exogenous estrogen and progesterone hormones,and have had very good effects on my body,but then I also have had more disgusting hair grow on my body...its like my body utilizes estrogens and testosterone equally well and simultaeneously.Its weird. I still havent figured out why my body hair suddenly started changing.It seems that some of my finer hairs turned heavier and darker suddenly.
While most of it is that light super fine female type hair.
Its still disconcerting.
What Ive found about the estradiols is that the ethinyl E.is supposed to be a complete synthetic and all the other variants are just compounded and concentrated from natural plant sources,like wild yam and soya.
They are still from botanicals but just stronger than their natural form.
I still havent had time to go see what how the EE is produced and what it is produced from.
When I get the money Im going to go with injectable estradiol,it totally avoids any problems with the liver,and goes directly into the blood and tissues.And I can inject the small proper amount every couple of days,to achieve the correct doses.It is supposed to be a much better way.
Im not really afraid of needles,I was sick much of my childhood and stuck with big hypodermics at clinics by docs and during hospital stays so much when I was young,It doesnt really bother me to stick myself with little ones.
Thats yahoo group TSDoItYourselfHormones group explains about injectables and where to get supplies and such.If you join they will send you files of source info. about all kinds of links and product sources.
However,the very good fact about getting a docs prescription as opposed to just ordering it yourself from overseas is that the prescr.is WAAAY cheaper.
Of course,ya haveta go to a shrinker and get the mighty blessings from the gatekeepers before you can get the psyche notes for allowing a doc to write you a prescr.Its BS!!!...to be able to "save" money,I have to go and spend a large amount of money on visits to a psychiatrist..total crap.
HelloOoOoOo,,I know my conditions,why do I haveta jump through their hoops.
Its probably cheaper to just go ahead and buy the stuff myself and then have my blood work done by a private lab.(I have info. on that,if anyone wants it,...just give me a yell)
Oh yeah,errr GingerD,,everybody produces estradiol,estriol and progesterone...the only one it seems from what Ive read that males dont make hardly any of is estrone.Of course,it depends on what and where you read stuff.
Oh BTW...Ive read so much on the fact that the synthetic progesterones,>progestins< are not very good in many respects,they dont have the same effects and properties that the natural PROG. does.
Its inferior to be simple about it.
I will recheck the info. I had read about progestins and get back with ya.
AH-HAAAAAA!!!...I just thought of something that may be important,as I was musing over what you and Fennel said and several things that keep popping up in my meditations.....I think that its the Progesterone that is the key.
When I started taking the Estriol/PROG. cream regularly and in a certain sequence with my chosen estrognics, I had really advanced in breast tissue development,,????why???...Im not sure exactly,I just know now that if I load up on estrogenics and lay off the PROG. for a few days then take the PROG.,oh my gosh!!!...I really have some strong reaction pertaining to breast fullness and density and size change.Its really boosted my growth,since finding this out...***of course***,Im still experimenting and havent done this particular program method but two times,so far.It has done the same effect both times so far.
KER-POW!!Ive got real boobs now!!!HAHAHA! XD They are standing out and are dense and have alot of structure to them ....my chest below them is 32" and right across my nipples they are 37"+...Anyway..pardon me for that outburst...hahaha..
Well,I only have part of the key,I can almost grasp the conjunction of my threads of thoughts....there is a common answer that eludes me....like just now,I had it in mind when i said AHHA and then by the time I got into writing it drifted away again....this sucks...Im an airhead...
I know that...estriol and prog. can work together,this I learned from reading about pregnancy hormones.AND the fact that they put it together in HRT creams for menopause.
Progsterone is fat soluble and thus builds up in tissues over time,just like estrogens.
I need to do more study on free-hormones in the blood,>>How long do they stay free until cleaned out?,>>What are the mechanics of the cause of their absorption into fats,and how long does it take to do it??>>What are the stimulators for release of the PROG. from the fats??>>How much can the fats absorb before nonabsorption takes place??>>Can the body change its ability to absorb more PROG. OR EST's??>>Can the ability be changed by inserting the right hormones or stimulating the right hormones??
Its interesting in the literature with my prog.creams it states that women that have estrogen dominance have lower sex drives and adding PROG. will stimulate the sex drive.Also estrogen dominance,can cause migranes.WOW....Ive noticed that since starting the PROG. and doing the proper hormone applications during the full moon period I havent had a single horrible headache at all.Maybe I had too much estrogen during those times,since Ive been boosting and stimulating estrogen production.I have figured out that when I stop taking my strongest est's for a day or two,I will get some new aches and pains all around my chest.
Perhaps musing on this...when the exogenous amounts are stopped,the est's in the tissues are released and hence the jump in activity.
I dont know for sure,yet. Ive been playing with the herbs in my program ,and then running out of certain things on days,,,I need more study to prove my theorys.
I just get so excited to try a new herb,to see what it will do,I dont wait long enough sometimes to stay with a current set.
Im waiting for awhile this time,before changing up.The only thing I really want is more kudzu.
I'd like to try the petunia pig(porky's opposite in Warner Bros,err never mind...) ovaries also.Just for fun,to see what they would do for me.
Or if I get the money Im going right for the hard stuff.
There is probably something that I forgot to mention or comment about,as Im tired.
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gingerD
(Login gingerD)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 9 2007, 10:26 AM
This is what confuses me, i read somthing on a website, i then break it down so i feel i can understand it better and im still wrong, yet its always what i have read.
I don't seem to understand what the hormones in my birth control are or what they do or how knowing what they do will help me either.
Its not you guys but i hate feeling thick its as if my stupid brain cant digest any information with out it being distorted, or that most websites i visit or find are full of ****.
sorry if i got it wrong as usual
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Louise
(no login) Random Info October 12 2007, 11:35 AM
I've been visiting my husband in Hong Kong so sorry it's been a while. I really don't know much about all this but I've been prescribed Dianette for PCO (was using microgynon 30 which really improved my skin but trying the Dianette for hirsutism and hopefully boob growth - although I didn't mention the boobs at the time!). I think under 30ug estrogen pills are considered low dose, 30-35ug normal and 50ug high dose.
Morticia's right in that they contain:
Ethinylestradiol ………. 0.035 mg (estrogen)
Cyproterone acetate BP … 2 mg (antiandrogenic progesterone)
Whereas microgynon contains:
Levonorgestrel 0.15mg
Ethinylestradiol 0.03mg
Which seems like a lot less progesterone....see below.
I was told by the doctor that Dianette has higher vascular risk and higher risk of liver toxicity than othe BCPs but not sure why.
The doctor also said she will review me and consider adding Androcur which is Cyproterone 50mg (loads!) for hirsutism but this you can only do for a limited time due to liver toxicity. Androcur is actually meant for men to combat prostate probs and male pattern baldness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my post on the main forum relating to this stuff:
This is the response to a question I asked a medical site about progesterone in BCP as I switched brands and noticed there was a large increase in dose of the progesterone component so I wanted to know if it was more progestoronic overall or if the new drug is weaker hence you need more of it:
"You recently asked the NLH Q&A service regarding whether the combined oral contraceptive Dianette (containing 2 mg of the progesterone cyproterone) is more progestogenic than Microgynon (containing 0.15 mg of levonogestrel) and which would be more suitable for women with low circulating progesterone. I am responding to your question as it was referred to London medicines information.
Cyproterone is a progesterone but also has anti-androgenic properties and is therefore preferred for women with acne, oily skin, or hirsutism. Levonorgestrel is also a progesterone but without apparent anti-androgenic activity. As such, whilst both cyproterone and levonorgestrel are potent progesterones a direct comparison in terms of equivalent doses is not available. It is also worth considering that interindividual pharmacokinetic and physiological variation may occur, resulting in 10 fold differences in circulating progesterone in women taking the same formulation of the same pill and sampled at the same time. Such variation is further compounded by differences in target organ sensitivity. Taking this into account it seems suggesting a specific suitable progesterone for a women with low circulating progesterone could only be achieved on an individual basis and may require specialist input."
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So it seems that again it is down to our own individual bodies to make use of the BCP (or not!) and it is pretty much down to luck and genetics whether it helps boob growth or hormonal symptoms.
P.S check out the Noogleberry system
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:22 PM
Oh its not just you Ginger D....I feel muddled also....like the answers are right there in front of me,but I cant fit the puzzle together just right or there is a piece missing yet.You added some good info to these musings.
Thanks Louise. Hmmmmm.....are those synthetic progesterones, or progestins?
Yah,I read that someone said that the USP prog. doesnt affect androgens.
Huhmmmm....perhaps I shall look into these antiandrogen progesterones..
It looks like it would screwup breast development if you are taking progesterones all the time. Unless it is actually developing glandular structures....but there again there's a controversy about whether or not it actually does that in persons over a certain age.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:24 PM
Good info, thank you Louise!
So far I'm not having any ill effects from the Ginette, none that I'm aware of.
I'm taking it sublingually though. Each morning I pop one under my tongue and let it dissolve. There's almost no taste at all, no burning, nothing. Just a little chalky stuff. I leave it under my tongue for about ten minutes, I think that should be enough.
This way it is pretty much bypassing the liver and the risks are much lower than just simply swallowing it.
I also am still taking large doses of Saw Palmetto and a few days ago I began to also take a couple of Ovary caps at night.
I wish I could afford to buy a long term supply of strong Cyproterone but that stuff is expensive.
I have a plan I'm working on that I will likely be able to implement early next year where I won't need any AA's ever again and will only need low dose estrogens from there on out. $1,000 for an orchi and it's done and over with forever.
That would save me a fortune over time and get me better results and one step closer to my ultimate goal.
_______________________________________
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My private little stash of girly goodies: http://tgchix.dyndns.org/girlystuff.html
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:38 PM
Hey Morticia!....good update thanks....its good to know how your meds work is doing...it helps me to decide which way I want to go..as to what meds.
damn yeah,a lot of that stuff is so ridiculous $$$ wise,its a ripoff.
Thats why Im considering trying to get a therapist letter of recommendation,for going to a doc who deals with this stuff so I can get cheap prescriptions.
BUUUUT ,there again its how expensive is the therapist and the doc visits going to be,ya know??? It'd probably eat up more of my money doing it that way actually.
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 7:41 PM
That inhousepharmacy.com website is expensive! I thought it'd be cheaper but as I was concerned about safety (and a bit of a wuss!) I went for medical supervision (Morticia - I hope you're going to get a liver test, I was very proud of my little liver's results!). In the UK if you go to the NHS you wait ages but see the doctor and have tests done free, then pay a small charge for the drugs. I went private so I had a great service but have to pay for the doctor's fees, blood tests, ultrasound and drugs. The Dianette brand 3 month supply only cost me £11 in Asda pharmacy which is part of Walmart so shop around a bit - you will need a prescription but this pill is also featured in the sex change section so I don't see why a doctor wouldn't prescribe it for that and maybe they'll monitor your liver too. Or if you have a female friend could she go to a different clinic and ask for this to be given as birth control and then give you the prescriptions. The stronger cyproterone is Androcur (brand name Propecia - you could get a doctor to prescribe this if you could fake male pattern baldness).
As far as I know Cyproterone is synthetic, this is what wiki has to say:
"Cyproterone acetate is a synthetic derivative of 17-hydroxyprogesterone, and acts as an androgen receptor antagonist"
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyproterone
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 12 2007, 9:31 PM
I don't have to fake male pattern baldness.
Problem is, health care in the states is unaffordable to low income people.
We have no system like the rest of the world has.
In the US they worship the almighty dollar as GOD.
Unless you are rich, you die young.
I can't afford to go to a doctor and even if I could, I would not.
I don't like them, I don't trust them.
They don't care about you at all. They exist to bleed you to death financially. They have no interest in helping you or curing you of your ailments. The only thing they cure you of is your cash problem via a walletectomy.
Medicine is VERY unaffordable in the US.. The prices at IHP are CHEAP compared to US prices.
Doctors will not see you unless you have health insurance. That costs average $400 a month.
IF you can find a doctor that will take cash it will cost you $200+ for an office visit, just for a simple exam, IE blood pressure, heart rate, look down your throat, in your ears, etc.. Just the basics only. Anything else and the price skyrockets straight up.
They tell people to get a full physical at like 40 years old and 45 and so on. They mean everything, like a peek up the booty hole, scope down the throat, etc.. A full examine like that can easily run you $6,000...
Like I said, unless you are rich, you die young.
Personally, I don't care anymore. I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm doing it on my own without paying the parasites.
I try to be easy on myself. There may be consequences down the road but oh well..
_______________________________________
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My private little stash of girly goodies: http://tgchix.dyndns.org/girlystuff.html
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Louise
(no login) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 13 2007, 5:39 AM
If you get a liver function test off the internet (they seem to have everything else) I've got the normal lab reference values if you need a comparison. I have to say that I had private medical insurance in a previous job when I first reported symptoms so I should have received all this for free but as my NHS doctor messed about so long I left that job and lost the cover so I've paid just over £600 for the consultation, scan and blood tests, however the medications are cheap £25 for 3 months so in terms of keeping it up shouldn't be too bad. If I'd used the NHS I'd still be waiting to be seen before I could even get a prescription - they saw me once and ordered tests but can't review me for 6 months due to cutbacks. The private system saw me Tuesday after work and I only made the initial enquiry on Friday afternoon so at least I'm getting good service.
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 14 2007, 10:49 PM
Like I said before...take Milk thistle extract,Turmeric,Ginger,or licorice.
For liver detoxification,there's other herbs,..I should make a topic list for them. Milk thistle is a liver and kidney cleanser and makes the liver able to process hormones more efficiently.It also stimulates production of new liver cells.
If it can stop liver cancer and cirrhosis and such,I dont see why it it cant strengthen and prevent estrogen from causing damage.Its the build up of toxins in the liver which are the main problem anyway.
If the liver cant function properly in the first place,then if you start loading it up with new estrogens to process,its not going to react well.
Its just going to "clogup" so to speak.
Milk thistle also has anticncer effects for the breasts and prostate tissues.
It also stimulates blood flow into the pelvis and fibrous tissues,such as breast tissues.
So,then hormones should be brought into those areas much more efficiently.
Its such a great herb to help with the hormone work.
Turmeric has many of the same properties and a lot more effects on reducing inflammation amd shutting down potential cancer cells.
In my area,I was quoted a monthly payment for health insurance for self employed as $45.oo.That seems quite cheap compared to what Morticia was talking about;but,I still cant afford it right now.
Doc office visits here are about $40.00.I havent been lately,so Im not exactly sure on that price...Im just going by what my mum and dad's doc visits are.
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Anon
(no login) How much Milk Thistle per day October 15 2007, 2:46 AM
I believe in my previous post I am taking 240 mg. Is that good enough to get the health and NBE benefits ?
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 16 2007, 5:54 AM
Hey,Anon....Oh you should take 600-700 mg of MT extract,for it to have good effects. You cant really overdo it.It wont cause any harm,as far as I have seen.
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Morticia
(Login moonstruck61) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 22 2007, 8:02 PM
Question.
All this metric stuff confuses me. I just can not process this information.
Some one please help me out here.
I'm trying to get figure out where I am with this.
Ok, here's what another girl posted in another forum about hormones.
********************************************************************
"4 mg of estradiol with the spironolactone is probably sufficiant to bring estradiol and testosterone levels to female range (with me my testosterone was mid to high female level at that very dose 36-76)"
********************************************************************
The 4mg part is what I'm confused about.
I'm taking the Ginette-35
It has:
Ethinylestradiol ………. 0.035 mg (estrogen)
Cyproterone acetate BP … 2 mg (antiandrogenic progesterone)
How does that compare to the 4mg estradiol as mentioned above??
Please forgive me but metrics and math and stuff on the right side of the decimal just confuse the hell out of me.
Thanks..
_______________________________________
http://transhouston.com/members/blog/morticia
My private little stash of girly goodies: http://tgchix.dyndns.org/girlystuff.html
_______________________________________
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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 22 2007, 8:33 PM
You're taking 0.035 compared to 4, this is roughly 100x weaker (114 to be exact - God I'm a nerd!) I'm not sure it's as simple as "I want my blood-estrogen to be X amount so I take X amount". I made a an enquiry to a medical site and they referred me on as the progesterone component of Ginette is 2mg compared to 0.15mg (13x stronger) in the Microgynon I took before (and incidentally the Ginette has bought me out in spots!). I wanted to know if cyproterone was a weaker progesterone therefore you need more or if Ginette was a much stronger formulation (I know all the valscular risks are worse with Ginette than any other brand and it's the only brand that can damage the female liver).
This was the reply:
"Cyproterone is a progesterone but also has anti-androgenic properties and is therefore preferred for women with acne, oily skin, or hirsutism. Levonorgestrel is also a progesterone but without apparent anti-androgenic activity. As such, whilst both cyproterone and levonorgestrel are potent progesterones a direct comparison in terms of equivalent doses is not available. It is also worth considering that interindividual pharmacokinetic and physiological variation may occur, resulting in 10 fold differences in circulating progesterone in women taking the same formulation of the same pill and sampled at the same time. Such variation is further compounded by differences in target organ sensitivity. Taking this into account it seems suggesting a specific suitable progesterone for a women with low circulating progesterone could only be achieved on an individual basis and may require specialist input."
So basically it's the luck of the draw what your body does with all this stuff. Maybe you could get a saliva hormone test - really don't want you to up the dosage!
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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: To Ginger or Fennel or Louise about bcp and Strong estrogens October 24 2007, 2:59 PM
I thought natural indigenous estrogens are measured in micrograms produced per day?? Microgram = 1000th of a gram.?? nG is the shorthand,I think.
Remember estradiol is only 10% of the total estrogens
I know on the DIYHormones group they talk of 80 mg per month,divided down per week or bi weekly.