15-04-2012, 01:35 AM
Hi all, has any one consulted a doctor about PM usage and its effects?
I would imagine they would tell you to go on synthetic estrogen.
I would imagine they would tell you to go on synthetic estrogen.
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15-04-2012, 11:33 PM
16-04-2012, 04:44 AM
Hi,
Not sure I can provide much of an answer and please excuse my ignorance in what hormones turn into and actually do.
My GP who specialises in trans health pretty much dismissed phytoestrogens as being ineffective after seeing the test results! I had bloods done a couple of weeks ago (he called them "baseline HRT" which is promising) and everything is in the middle of normal for a 50-year old male. However, that doesn't explain the breasts (almost a B) that are attached to my non-fat bod (BMI of 24 and reducing)!!! He did ask if I actually wanted them!!! Ummmm.....YES! Old GP offered to arrange surgery to remove the breast tissue!
I think perhaps doctors only know about the phyto effects of weaker plants such as Soy where you appaernetly have to consume large amounts (my old GP confirmed breast growth and asked if I was eating alot of soy).
My new GP did make sure that my intake had only been plant-based which reinforces this thought. If the E had been synthetic, the approach may have been different.
The question I have now is to what extent does PM and reduced DHT from various things taken actually show up on hormone blood tests? If the test is for human (or synthetic human) hormones, does phyto-e material show up? It may be that the receptors are getting enough phyto-e while the hormone mix they test for don't change much.
Not sue I have added much. Might have to ask an Endo if and when I get in front of one.
Bye
L
Not sure I can provide much of an answer and please excuse my ignorance in what hormones turn into and actually do.
My GP who specialises in trans health pretty much dismissed phytoestrogens as being ineffective after seeing the test results! I had bloods done a couple of weeks ago (he called them "baseline HRT" which is promising) and everything is in the middle of normal for a 50-year old male. However, that doesn't explain the breasts (almost a B) that are attached to my non-fat bod (BMI of 24 and reducing)!!! He did ask if I actually wanted them!!! Ummmm.....YES! Old GP offered to arrange surgery to remove the breast tissue!
I think perhaps doctors only know about the phyto effects of weaker plants such as Soy where you appaernetly have to consume large amounts (my old GP confirmed breast growth and asked if I was eating alot of soy).
My new GP did make sure that my intake had only been plant-based which reinforces this thought. If the E had been synthetic, the approach may have been different.
The question I have now is to what extent does PM and reduced DHT from various things taken actually show up on hormone blood tests? If the test is for human (or synthetic human) hormones, does phyto-e material show up? It may be that the receptors are getting enough phyto-e while the hormone mix they test for don't change much.
Not sue I have added much. Might have to ask an Endo if and when I get in front of one.
Bye
L
16-04-2012, 09:59 AM
Hi, Lisa.
I'm going to assume that you informed your new GP that your intake was plant-based, and that was how he arrived at that conclusion. I, personally, don't know if there is a blood test for DHT, although I really doubt it. If I am wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected here. I also believe that a normal blood test will not differentiate between types of Estrogen you may have in your system. Rather, it will simply tell you that you have it, and at what level. The same should go for testerone levels. The doctor may ask if you've been consuming something, otherwise the only way they should know exactly what form of hormone/s you are taking is if they are prescribing it. The blood test forms I have been seeing when mine is drawn, just have a block for Estrogen, and another for Testerone.
When she first noticed that my T was at 20, it was a normal blood test, for mainly Cholesterol, iron, and a couple things. She decided to pull 7 vials and check all kinds of stuff. I'm guessing she threw the T test in because of my age. However, she never asked if I was taking something (definitely!!) that would reduce T, in spite of the rather obvious protuberances on my chest. Perhaps as she has only been my doctor for about 8 months, she thinks the growth has been over a long term due to my T level being so extremely low.
In short, I don't think a blood test will tell your doctor what you have been taking, just that things are normal or not. I am toying with the idea of asking her to check my estrogen, but haven't quite arrived at the proper approach. 3 months ago, when she first spotted the low T, she asked if I wanted to raise it. Then, I said no. A month later I told her to go ahead and give me a shot. A month later, another shot. Over the approximately 7 week span of the shots, I quickly found room to add almost 20 pounds. Last week, when we went back for more blood tests, I told her I wanted no more of that process. For the last few weeks, I've been back on the cyproterone acetate a little heavy, tyring to get rid of the T shots effect. Fortunately, I think it has worked, but will wait for the test results for confirmation. Between the weight gain and the sudden randiness (wife was not thrilled!!), life was vastly uncomfortable.
A little off in the wild, sorry. Hope I answered a question or two. If I'm incorrect, someone straighten me out. Please? Patti
I'm going to assume that you informed your new GP that your intake was plant-based, and that was how he arrived at that conclusion. I, personally, don't know if there is a blood test for DHT, although I really doubt it. If I am wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected here. I also believe that a normal blood test will not differentiate between types of Estrogen you may have in your system. Rather, it will simply tell you that you have it, and at what level. The same should go for testerone levels. The doctor may ask if you've been consuming something, otherwise the only way they should know exactly what form of hormone/s you are taking is if they are prescribing it. The blood test forms I have been seeing when mine is drawn, just have a block for Estrogen, and another for Testerone.
When she first noticed that my T was at 20, it was a normal blood test, for mainly Cholesterol, iron, and a couple things. She decided to pull 7 vials and check all kinds of stuff. I'm guessing she threw the T test in because of my age. However, she never asked if I was taking something (definitely!!) that would reduce T, in spite of the rather obvious protuberances on my chest. Perhaps as she has only been my doctor for about 8 months, she thinks the growth has been over a long term due to my T level being so extremely low.
In short, I don't think a blood test will tell your doctor what you have been taking, just that things are normal or not. I am toying with the idea of asking her to check my estrogen, but haven't quite arrived at the proper approach. 3 months ago, when she first spotted the low T, she asked if I wanted to raise it. Then, I said no. A month later I told her to go ahead and give me a shot. A month later, another shot. Over the approximately 7 week span of the shots, I quickly found room to add almost 20 pounds. Last week, when we went back for more blood tests, I told her I wanted no more of that process. For the last few weeks, I've been back on the cyproterone acetate a little heavy, tyring to get rid of the T shots effect. Fortunately, I think it has worked, but will wait for the test results for confirmation. Between the weight gain and the sudden randiness (wife was not thrilled!!), life was vastly uncomfortable.
A little off in the wild, sorry. Hope I answered a question or two. If I'm incorrect, someone straighten me out. Please? Patti
16-04-2012, 07:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 16-04-2012, 07:54 PM by chrishoney.)
Blood tests for estrogen typically look at total E, which is often (though not all docs ask for this differentiation )broken down into E1 (estrone), E2 (estradiol) and E3 (estriol.) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estradiol for a discussion of the differences, relative strength and the place of each in the female reproductive cycles. Typically, endos are looking at E2 with the idea of getting the levels for MtF transsexuals into the normal range for females.
Blood tests for Testosterone and DHT are often also done for obvious reasons, though for reasons more to do with cost of the test (typical blood work for a MtF can easliy be in the USD$ 150 to 200 range without adding a test for DHT), DHT levels are often not determined since if free testosterone levels are low, DHT will be low as well.
Of course it is theoretically possible to test for the active ingredients in PM, but I have not read anywhere that it is done, and it certainly is not part of the usual panel of tests for serum hormone levels.
Since most endos use serum estradiol and testosterone levels to judge the "effectiveness" of a MtF HRT program (as versus actually judging the degree of feminization), and PM does not contain estradiol nor does it increase natural estradiol production, to a traditional MD it is "ineffective." Obviously, this does not mean it is not highly estrogenic (it is a highly potent estradiol mimic) or that it will not produce results in men (it obviously does for some men!), just that it does not affect serum estradiol levels. If the docs would take a minute to even begin to reason out what the standard hormone profile tests show with respect to how phytoestrogens work, they too would be able to see the error in their reasoning. Furthermore, it has long been the orthodoxy, dare I say dogma, that herbal or natural feminization is completely ineffective. In truth, they are partly right, lower potency phytoestrogens ARE inadequate for the purposes (and the time frame; oh they are an impatient bunch! lol) of most MtF transsexuals. However, it is my belief that this dogma was established in western medicine before PM became known, or widely used.
So the long and short of it is most western docs think phytoestrogens are all alike, and since soy is largely ineffective for MtF transition, they all are. Blood tests can not at present show what anyone has been taking to grow breasts or feminize themselves, even if they were using prescription hormones. The standard panel of blood tests merely tests for serum levels of the key sex hormones and nothing else.
Hope this helps.
Blood tests for Testosterone and DHT are often also done for obvious reasons, though for reasons more to do with cost of the test (typical blood work for a MtF can easliy be in the USD$ 150 to 200 range without adding a test for DHT), DHT levels are often not determined since if free testosterone levels are low, DHT will be low as well.
Of course it is theoretically possible to test for the active ingredients in PM, but I have not read anywhere that it is done, and it certainly is not part of the usual panel of tests for serum hormone levels.
Since most endos use serum estradiol and testosterone levels to judge the "effectiveness" of a MtF HRT program (as versus actually judging the degree of feminization), and PM does not contain estradiol nor does it increase natural estradiol production, to a traditional MD it is "ineffective." Obviously, this does not mean it is not highly estrogenic (it is a highly potent estradiol mimic) or that it will not produce results in men (it obviously does for some men!), just that it does not affect serum estradiol levels. If the docs would take a minute to even begin to reason out what the standard hormone profile tests show with respect to how phytoestrogens work, they too would be able to see the error in their reasoning. Furthermore, it has long been the orthodoxy, dare I say dogma, that herbal or natural feminization is completely ineffective. In truth, they are partly right, lower potency phytoestrogens ARE inadequate for the purposes (and the time frame; oh they are an impatient bunch! lol) of most MtF transsexuals. However, it is my belief that this dogma was established in western medicine before PM became known, or widely used.
So the long and short of it is most western docs think phytoestrogens are all alike, and since soy is largely ineffective for MtF transition, they all are. Blood tests can not at present show what anyone has been taking to grow breasts or feminize themselves, even if they were using prescription hormones. The standard panel of blood tests merely tests for serum levels of the key sex hormones and nothing else.
Hope this helps.
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