[JustEmily]

I was reading the entry/paper on phytoestrogen rich foods in Sfem's blog, and I have a question.

Several posts here talk about different herbs competing for the estrogen receptors, and that since PM is the strongest it has been suggested that should be used on its own or with a testosterone blocker.

So, what's the deal? Will an overabundance of phyto-rich foods also compete? I have been eating a super phyto breakfast for a while before even reading the paper (oatmeal with a quarter cup of ground walnuts, a quarter cup of ground flax, almond milk, and a teaspoon of maca powder. Sweetened with brown rice syrup.)

Would it help, hurt, or not really make a difference one way or another to continue this trend?

Does the addition of pyto rich foods really matter? And does the avoidance of androgen boosters like pineapple make a difference?

Pinapple: http://www.livestrong.com/article/552705...tosterone/

Inquiring minds want to know.

[julieTG]

That's a very interesting question Emily , I am looking forward to the answer on this one also

Julie

[sfem]

I have read on this forum in the past comments that the effects of the active components in phytoestrogens decay in a few hours in the body. I have also read that the normal cycle for females is to have a fluctation in their hormone levels where they are typically higher in the morning than later in the day. Having no reason to doubt either of these things, the next question is what is your schedule for taking PM? If you spread it out through the day, then the potential competition may indeed be a factor. If you take it only at night, or only in the morning then there really shouldn't be any potential competition and you are likely simply increasing your base level of phytoestrogens present throughout the day (by a teeny tiny amount).
I have been on a small maintenance dose of PM for quite a while which I take first thing in the morning only. After I take it, I feed and walk the dog, deal with my shower, tidy up around the place, and have coffee. Some days I eat breakfast, but most I don't and have an early lunch instead. So for me, a phytoestrogen rich diet would have little potential competition with my PM. But I don't eat a phytoestrogen rich diet. The flax part of your diet probably supplies more phytoestrogens than the rest of your diet put together, and that is probably less than a single capsule of PM. That is why I don't bother with worrying about phytoestrogens in my food. They really are just too little to do much of anything. I posted the link on the blog because I know there are folks who are nervous about the kinds of changes PM can bring, and just want to dabble and so they take other less potent things. I thought that article would be helpful to those who are on that path. It's probably also worth mentioning that there are lots of other factors involved besides just how much phytoestrogen is consumed, and many of the herbs in the list have other effects besides just the estrogenic actions (e.g. FG is a galactagogue).

[JustEmily]

I take about ~1.18 grams of PM every 8 hours (a quarter teaspoon) with pygeum. I try to go 6:30 am to 2:30 pm to 10:30 pm. I spread spearmint tea through the day, usually topping out at about 20 oz.

I also take hops before bed but not in the morning as it makes me drowsy.

I have been toying with the idea of adding red clover liquid extract to my tea that I drink throughout the day.

If phytoestrogens do in fact degrade in a few hours, I could have my tea in the middle of my 8 hour stretches and be okay (theoretically) and shift my breakfast to about 10:30.

What I don't want to do is mess with the PM, as it seems to be the magic bullet.

Today is day 51, with no significant chest action spare larger nipples... but my skin is super soft, my body hair is definitely thinner and growing back slower, and my hips and butt are growing (I know because my pants fit differently) but, despite the bigger bum, I have lost a few pounds.

I have read about fat "redistribution" but I think it is more of a shift of fat collection patterns. I am probably and unfortunately just making new fat cells for my bum and thighs/hips and the ones on my gut are shrinking.

Nature sucks... we can make new fat cells but the old ones never really leave us (short of lipo).

I want to look like a woman, but not a fat woman. I guess I should be more specific with my wishes.

[flamesabers]

I have read about fat "redistribution" but I think it is more of a shift of fat collection patterns. I am probably and unfortunately just making new fat cells for my bum and thighs/hips and the ones on my gut are shrinking.

Isn't that what fat redistribution is? It's not as though fat can somehow migrate from one part of the body to another.

Nature sucks... we can make new fat cells but the old ones never really leave us (short of lipo).

If I'm not mistaken, when we gain or loss weight, the volume of fat cells change, rather than the quantity of them.

[JustEmily]

We can make more.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11444.php

This article states that we can get rid of them, but then goes on to just say they shrink.

http://www.oprah.com/health/How-Can-I-Ge...-Fat-Cells

[EricaB]

I've read that fat cells prefer to shrink, emptying themselves of their fat content. But once you've lost a really large amount of weight, the fat cells will disappear. So will muscle cells under those circumstances.

Just look at photos of any person who was in a World War II concentration camp or any person with an eating disorder such as anorexia; they're mostly skin and bone with no fat and almost no muscle.

As a side note, if the person is female, almost all of their breast tissue is gone also.

[JustEmily]

well, that's hopeful... male fat begone! bring on the hips.