[Emmy76]

Damn, sorry to share this in case it's real.

Does it mean that Estrogen will help grow boobs, but Phytoestrogens is normally used to SLOW breast growth (preventing the stronger estrogen compounds from entering)?

"Phytoestrogens are plant-based estrogens. The 2 most prominent sources are soy and flax, although there are some herbs that act as SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) these include Red Clover, Black Cohosh and European Rosemary. Phytoestrogens have a weak estrogenic effect. They are thought to benefit breast health by locking onto estrogen receptors in breast tissue and thus preventing the stronger and more dangerous estrogen compounds from entering."

From >> http://www.womenswellnessconsulting.com/...index.html

I am going to call BS on this source for 3 reasons:

1) it is not published in a peer reviewed journal, but rather someone's personal website.

2) Where are her sources? Even in this forum, when we find something (just as you did) you referenced the source AND you even posted the link for us. This author does neither.

3) She is a nurse which means that she has little to no training in medicinal chemistry. She also does not work in research, so it is unlikely that she is well versed in chemistry (as many of the forum members on here seem to do a LOT of reading and are probably much more informed than her, regarding medicinal chemistry).

A quick search on scholar.google.com revealed that her above quoted statement is incorrect Here is the link: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.12...39.10.6216

The last line of the abstract says: In summary, while the estrogenic potency of industrial-derived estrogenic chemicals is very limited, the estrogenic potency of phytoestrogens is significant, especially for ERβ, and they may trigger many of the biological responses that are evoked by the physiological estrogens.

Here's another pretty cool article: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf034427b

I hope this helps to offer some clarity and to debunk Ms. Rice's statements.

[GoneGirl]

I hope this helps to offer some clarity and to debunk Ms. Rice's statements.

I'm sorry, Meow, but nothing is clear. What has Ms. Rice stated that is incorrect and why?

Clara Kay

[Lotus]

I hope this helps to offer some clarity and to debunk Ms. Rice's statements.

I'm sorry, Meow, but nothing is clear. What has Ms. Rice stated that is incorrect and why?

Clara Kay

Meow, the article is quoted from ,Christine Horner, M.D.
F.A.C.S., Waking the Warrior Goddess,
Basic Health Publications, 2005

It seems you understand endocrinology which is why I'm confused, granted PM affects everybody differently but also works by targeting receptors and replacing the harmful real estrogen receptors and thereby preventing the proliferation of the cells, see attached files:

http://www.breastnexus.com/attachment.php?aid=5419
http://www.pdg.cnb.uam.es/cursos/Barcelo...Intro.html

And I found this recently and man, I haven't seen another massage yet that targets the receptors, I think it's a release of E, try and see!
http://www.breastnexus.com/attachment.php?aid=5421

NBE isn't solely dependent on PM, so many other things to consider to help maximizing your results, bio-male, bio-female, and even some MTF, you all remember smallfry before going on HRT?

[Emmy76]

Integr Cancer Ther-2013-Fritz-1534735413477191.pdf Size: 915.49 KB  Downloads: 5

I hope this helps to offer some clarity and to debunk Ms. Rice's statements.

I'm sorry, Meow, but nothing is clear. What has Ms. Rice stated that is incorrect and why?

Clara Kay

Hi ClaraKay:
Sorry about my post and any confusion that it may have caused. I hope this helps to clear up any confusion, but more or less what I was trying to say is that Ms. Rice’s claims that phytoestrogens are weak and therefore will not help us to grow breasts is incorrect. Also, that phytoestrogens will not always prevent stronger estrogen compounds from attaching to the estrogen receptors and therefore prevent breast growth.

Phytoestrogens may act as an inhibitor in some cases, sure, because if it is introduced first and latches onto the receptor first, then it blocks out whatever other estrogen compound from coming in and latching on.

Think of it as a first come first serve basis. I have a really silly example to try to demonstrate my point. Please don’t laugh as it is the only example I could think of just now. :p

Say we both have the same amount of money (think of this as in we are both potential estrogens and want to latch on to something) and want the same pair of shoes (the estrogen receptor). I get out of work earlier than you because my boss was nice to me that day (I was introduced into the body first) and so I went to the store and got the shoes first (I latched onto the estrogen receptor first). Does this mean that because I got the shoes first that I am stronger, smarter, richer, more powerful, evil, etc. than you? Nope. All it means is that I got there first and I inhibited you from buying the pair of shoes, just because my boss let me out of work early that day.

Specifically, I was referencing Ms. Rice’s work from this website: http://www.womenswellnessconsulting.com/...index.html

And specifically on that page, I was referencing this text:
“Phytoestrogens are plant-based estrogens. The 2 most prominent sources are soy and flax, although there are some herbs that act as SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) these include Red Clover, Black Cohosh and European Rosemary. Phytoestrogens have a weak estrogenic effect. They are thought to benefit breast health by locking onto estrogen receptors in breast tissue and thus preventing the stronger and more dangerous estrogen compounds from entering."

The part that I was referencing that was incorrect is Ms. Rice’s above statement: “Phytoestrogens have a weak estrogenic effect.”

When in fact, phytoestrogens are actually quite potent, as referenced throughout the scientific literature. I posted one link as an example (http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.12...39.10.6216)
Here is a recent study just published that shows how awesomely potent phytoestrogens can be by Kelly et al., Estrogen receptor alpha augments changes in hemostatic gene expression in HepG2 cells treated with estradiol and phytoestrogens
In Phytomedicine
Volume 21, Issue 2, 15 January 2014, Pages 155–158
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...1313002754).

Also, it has more or less been proven that black cohosh really isn’t a phytoestrogen in recent years. We can find this in a recent scientific peer reviewed article at this link: http://journals.lww.com/hnpjournal/Citat...ack.8.aspx
We even found via a meta analysis that it does little to impact estradiol or other estrogens. http://ict.sagepub.com/content/13/1/12.short There is a free link to the PDF of this article if you do a scholar.google.com search. I don’t really know how to upload the PDF and do a share link to share it all with you for free, so I am sorry about that… :/ I think I attached it to this post, if I did not, sorry!

I hope this helps. ☺

[Emmy76]

I hope this helps to offer some clarity and to debunk Ms. Rice's statements.

I'm sorry, Meow, but nothing is clear. What has Ms. Rice stated that is incorrect and why?

Clara Kay

Meow, the article is quoted from ,Christine Horner, M.D.
F.A.C.S., Waking the Warrior Goddess,
Basic Health Publications, 2005

It seems you understand endocrinology which is why I'm confused, granted PM affects everybody differently but also works by targeting receptors and replacing the harmful real estrogen receptors and thereby preventing the proliferation of the cells, see attached files:

http://www.breastnexus.com/attachment.php?aid=5419
http://www.pdg.cnb.uam.es/cursos/Barcelo...Intro.html

And I found this recently and man, I haven't seen another massage yet that targets the receptors, I think it's a release of E, try and see!
http://www.breastnexus.com/attachment.php?aid=5421

NBE isn't solely dependent on PM, so many other things to consider to help maximizing your results, bio-male, bio-female, and even some MTF, you all remember smallfry before going on HRT?

Hi Mistress~Lotus:

First and foremost, I think you should totally bump that massage link up in some threads as I think it is super crazy awesome. THANK You!!!!!! Thank you for the link for the massage technique, super neat. I will begin this new technique tonight. ☺

I think you are referencing my other post where I mentioned that PM is not working for me and not just this post about Ms. Rice. I am a bit confused about this, but thank you for your reply!

Thanks for the reply and where she got her references. I saw that in her original post, she put down 3 references but that she did not cite them. This is a common thing for people to do just to make their work seem legit and often, it goes through via fine. It was such a big issue when I published a big report and I was coerced to reference this one author who had claims that were RIDICULOUS. I was reading them and they made NO sense at all. So I went to his citations and looked up the original articles. I also went through his statistical analysis and was able to procure the raw data that he had used to come to his conclusions. I had found that 1) some of his references were made up, 2) his references were super old (this report was published in 2013 and he was referencing things from the 1960s in some cases, even though there was an abundance of new data) and 3) he used the incorrect statistical tests when analyzing his data just to get the results he wanted. Since this was a huge report and I am super anal retentive when it comes to my work and my boss is even more anal retentive and almost a psychopath when it comes to accuracy, I came to learn that citations are incredibly important and to always review the original article. Hence my weariness about Ms. Rice’s post.

I wasn’t referencing PM and ER specifically in this post and you are correct, that PM doesn’t target just 1 type of tissue, hence why some people experience changes in mood, skin, etc. But thank you for the picture diagram! It is really cool!

And yes, some estrogens have an increased potential (affinity) for binding to the receptors than others. Hence why in my example of shoe buying I tried to make everything equal, implying that we have the same type of affinity but that whichever one of us gets there first will get the shoes (bind to the receptor) first. Thank you!

[Lotus]

And yes, some estrogens have an increased potential (affinity) for binding to the receptors than others. Hence why in my example of shoe buying I tried to make everything equal, implying that we have the same type of affinity but that whichever one of us gets there first will get the shoes (bind to the receptor) first. Thank you!

Hi Meow,
Thank you for research, I'll admit you're shoe theory is unusual, but I get. It reminds me of Christine Horner's example of the ER car ride,lol

To understand the estrogen pathway better, lets use the analogy of a car ride. Your trip begins in the ovaries where estrogen is made and then is released into the blood. The blood vessels are like highways and estrogen flows through these blood vessel highways to get to its target destinations. When estrogen travels in the blood, it either travels alone or is attached to a substance called a "protein binder" (HSBG, Human Sex Binding Globulin), -the difference between driving alone and carpooling. When you carpool in certain cities, you can use a special high-speed lane, usually on the far left. In this lane, you can't exit from the highway. If you're driving alone, you can't use these high-speed lanes. You must travel in lanes that have access to exit lanes. Like the person driving alone, only the estrogen that travels alone – without a protein binder, SHBG – can exit from the blood-vessel highway. In this case, we are concerned about the off-ramp for only one destination: the breast tissue.

http://www.womenswellnessconsulting.com/...index.html


Here's the correct site from science direct : http://www.phytomedicinejournal.com/arti...4/abstract

Btw, you have lovely breasts, can I recommend that you start your own thread?, you'd bring a unique perspective and the citational psychopath would be a great addition, I'd be more then happy to share with you!


Sorry Jesse!, hope you don't mind us sharing from you're op!

[Jamie Lee]

Honestly when i was on pm for a week i did notice results and did have quite a bit of itching and sexual tension was lowered and my nipples did have increased senstivity size increase and they got hard in cold that was my experience sadly i had too stop (im under 18) i really hope i can start again soon but until then im sticking to sp milk thistle and fenugreek