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Herbs vs HRT
October 10 2007 at 11:02 PM Anon (no login)

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I noticed in some of the threads you were talking about HRT and such that M2F generally take, as well as how much E a male can take in comparison to females. Is HRT = herbs?? Cause I am not getting anywhere on my herbs... though its early. Now I am confused. I was never a good biology student.



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Samskara
(no login) Herbs vs. HRT October 11 2007, 12:32 PM


The herbs usually being discussed are those containing estrogen-like compounds, generally called phytoestrogens. HRT uses either natural or synthetic estrogens, usually estradiol. The primary distinction is that herbal preparations aren't as concentrated or standardized to the degree that HRT is. The estrogenic substances would work about equally well, but it's harder to be certain exactly how much you're getting with the herbal preparations.

Keep in mind that breast growth isn't due to the estrogens themselves. Rather, estrogens stimulate production of prolactin, which is the hormone that really acts on the breasts. Unfortunately, there are no commercial forms of prolactin, and, as far as I know, no natural products which mimic its action.


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Blu-Jay
(Login Blu-Jay) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 11 2007, 5:17 PM


Herbs are also slow acting, it may be a few months before you'll see some results. You need to make sure you use a good androgen blocker or you might be waiting for results to happen for a long time ;-)
If you're younger and have time, then the herbals is a good and safer way to go.
'Patience' is also a good thing to practice.


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Anon
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 12 2007, 1:59 AM


Ok.... then a good androgen blocker is Saw Palmetto? But you are right... it's soooooo excruciatingly slow. Several months and nothing. I may try the Progesterone cream.

But here is the question.... which progesterone creme is good? The brand from Walmart has a "chemical known to cause cancer in California". Should I use Dr Lee's Progesterall?? Or are they all roughly about the same? And they really don't sell these cremes in the drugstores. I was surprised.


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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 12 2007, 7:11 PM


Also try pumpkin seed oil/extract,punmpkin is the other anti-androgen.
Also Pygeum. However,it is a rain forest herb and there have been articles about not buying it because of depletion of natural stands.
Also spearmint,but not sure of its actual usefulness.
Also licorice is effective,its one of its abilites.

Use both the Saw and pumpkin seed extract and that should have some effects.

I use saw and licorice,and sometimes saw/pygeum,if I find it together in one capsule on sale.

Here's another new one that looks good,not too many people know about it.
Cotton Plant seed oil.
It is highly estrogenic. Im going to find it and try it.
They use it in some countries as an abortificient,because its estrogenic chemical content is so high..Its fast acting.

uhmm..Ive had good results with my prog. products.
You have to take prog. if you want real mammary gland development.

And Id like to know where Sam' got that info. that states that estrogen ISNT responsible for breast development alone,and did you mean that its >also or only< prolactin? I can see that actually,as I muse on different hormone interactions at certain times.
I havent ever seen that anywhere,and I read A LOT of stuff all over the place.
Id like to know a source for that.

All I know is for me I try and stimulate prolactin levels as much as possible.

On another tangent,not everybody gets breast degeneration when taking progesterone.Some women do,and some dont.
For me it seems to work well if I take it at the right times,sort of,skipping certain days and loading up on estrogenics on those days.
Then when I take a big application of it,I get alot of aches and feelings of lymph movement and such.Im still trying different timing with the other stuff.

Some people have good results with the cheapo low level prog.,Anon,...Im just not one to go with the weak stuff.If im going to spend money on prog.products then Im going to buy the best ones I can.

I still think the estriol is important in this also.



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Anon
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 13 2007, 2:49 AM


Hi Davilee,

I did find a good one for $25+ called "Natural Women". Easy there Morticia.... But this stuff sounds very healthy and derived from Mexican Wild Yam Root. No funny sounding chemicals either. So how would you mix this in with the estrogen herbs? Would you pick two weeks on E-herbs and two weeks just on Prog creme?

Also what is "breast degeneration"? I am not getting any spikes or aches at all. I feel a little bloated, but thats about it. Do I have to modify the program and feel aches? Or can I stay with the herbs as is?




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the chatterer....
(Login Davi-lee) Hiya.... October 15 2007, 12:20 AM


Huhmmm..Wild Yam cream.....so is that whole herb or is it extracted diosgenin?
Im just all about going right to the straight compounds.
Ive read pros and cons about wild yam,some herbalists think that its good to take as whole herb and others think that it doesnt have much effect at all.
It just depends on the pepole they've dealt with I guess.

My goodness,Anon,there are so many different creams and such,,,,what alls in that one?? you tell me what the ingredients are and in the order they are on the label and i'll tell ya if its any good.

Well,everybody seems to have their own different opinion as to when they like to apply the PROG. stuff.
uhmmm ya said.."2 wks on ests and 2 wks on prog alone" basically?
You should try them together and see what that does for you.
Seems most people agree that you shouldnt take it constantly,the two weeks is a good number it falls into that amount of time we all have discussed.
I do not stop my estrogenics intake,but generally,I reduce my ests when Im applying PROG..I take estriol in the cream with the prog,so Im still getting an estrogen.
It works with progesterone usually so thats why Im all for it,Im just wanting to see if it makes some difference.
Any advantage will help as far as Im concerned.
I havent seen any real problem taking Ests and PROG together.
I keep getting the same continual growth and aches and pains,so,ehhh...I dont know...
Here's my little therory about taking the est's with the Prog.,I believe that the Est's are still going to be stored into the fat tissues while the Prog. is doing its thang,it is absorbed by the fat tissues also.
When the exogenous Est's are stopped,for a bit,then the est's stored in the fats get released,and thus,the sudden aches and pains and such.
Its just a musing,so dont take it as facts. It just seems to work that way for me.
I dont know,really,what the results are,about stopping which hormone when and taking them together and whatever,I dont seem to have any consistant results no matter what I try changing....I just keep getting growth and aches and pains. Im not complaining...HAHA!
Im just trying to get more fats to my boobs,right now,Ive got all kinds of gland growth going on and they are dense and full in that respect.They dont move around much because they are so firm.I do get some bounce when Ive got a lot of fluids in them when they decide to swell up.
Its so cool!!! I giggle like crazy when they get like that....it just gets so amazing sometimes how they can change so quick.
Frankly,I like the swelling and aches when I squeeze them,makes me feel good.Aaaaaand its a great sex sensation.
Squeezing the nipples and boobs together...KA-ZING!..OMG...the amazing belly feelings that produces.Like electric shocks and a swelling pressure in the belly all at the same time.
Its true,that once you get real boob tissue growth,Oh the amount of new nerve feelings and such you'll get.They are so great...I can see how women that have big ones can really enjoy their boobs so much.
Oh I digressed a bit.

As to breast degeneration,I meant shrinking of the glands,because of prolactin reduction and/or fluid reduction.Its the same thing.
Some women fluctuate as to fat amounts also. I'm afraid Im that way too.

Ya know,thats why many women have trouble with small breasts,its due to having low amounts of fat deposits in the body. It's just that way for some,....not all. The slender,skinny gals and I are the same body constitution,we have problems maintaining fats(stored energy) in our bodies.We have high metabolisms and burn up energy--fats quickly.
Which is a good thing health wise really.Good for the heart/circulatory system and immune system.

So thats why Im all about gaining like a little piggy,and putting on as much pounds as possible and as fast as possible.

I am pleased to report that I am now 147 lbs,up from 133 on first week of August. So,my program is working finally,it took a bit to get my body to change its ways as far as accumulating fat.
Now,Im gaining everyday it seems,...it may be a problem at some point if my bod gets too good at storing fat...however as long as it keeps going to my butt and belly and legs who cares for now...HAHAHA.. I love the way it makes me look. Keep getting bigger, thats my motto.My only concern is that now Im losing my narrow waist...that sucks. So,I'll have to get me a good corset,I suppose. I've talked to some gals that said it really helps for controlling fat accumulation in certain places and makes it migrate somewhat.

Darn my chattering mind,,,sorry Anon...back to your last query....
Well,I didnt get aches and pains at first either,I just suddenly noticed that my breast tissues were expanding behind my nipple....mind you,I was doing a lot of breast vacking and so my breast tissues were getting expanded all the time as big as I could make them.So,I think that had some effect on why I didnt feel much at first.
It was awhile before I started feeling real aches and twinges and that dull,pointed ache that feels like some object being jabbed around in one spot.
I dont know what "tingles" feel like,some people talk about that exclusively,but Ive never had any sensations like that.
Maybe,I did and just called it something else.I usually cannot mistake my breast pains for anything else. I get aches and soreness all around my general chest area mostly,at the sides of my breasts,straight down below them in a line area along the rib cage,and thats the weird ones,the soreness at the bottom of my ribs,ooh that gets so tender sometimes,when I bump something into my belly or lean over something..it gives me the shivers and the creeps.....
My luck...I'll start growing two extra boobs or something..that would be hilarious!! I read a story about,a woman in HongKong who had some kind of hormone treatment and she started developing extra breasts down below her main breasts.That would be wild!! She was mortified and deeply embarassed.
Geez,she should have kept at it and she could have started a new career as a new popular erotic performer on the I-Net.A lot of guys are really into "freak" stuff. I dont consider it freaky though,its just natural and way facinating. That would be great to have polymastia(I think thats it).

Did you tell me what you were taking before in that one topic thread?
Have you tried reducing anything and seeing if you are just overdoing some herb. Frankly,I dont see how you could be,but it can happen.
You arent taking anything in excessive amounts are you?
Perhaps you just need to either boost amounts of some things OR* change to some stronger herbs.
Like Licorice or Hops or Kudzu or Motherwort or that Pueraria m.,Im really considering of trying it for awhile and see what it does to me....I just love to be a labrat. I mean,I dont care,its all good if it has some good effects.
Oh and there's Cotton plant seed oil....highly estrogenic....I havent went to the sites yet to buy it,and read about it,so I will let ya know when I do,and what i find out.

Okay..Ive chattered on and on...Ive gotta go...read ya later!! xox~davilee


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Anon
(no login) Program October 15 2007, 2:42 AM


Hi Davilee,
Here are the ingredients in order to Natural Woman"
Purified water, natural glycerin, stearal konium chloride, topoherol (Vit E), avacado oil, natural progesterone USP(derive from Mexican Yam root), Aloe vera oil, Rosemary extract, Vit A palmitate, carrot oil, lemon grass oil.

I tried a nickel or dime size on each breast.

Also:
1720 mg Red Clover
2440 mg Fennugreek
900 mg Saw Palmetto
280 mg Milk Thistle

also some soy lecithen, vit C, selenium, ginko, etc.

So maybe the same amounts of herbs and just 2 weeks of progesterone creme?

I guess maybe someday in the distant future, all those feelings will hit me too. But nothing really has happened yet. Of course I want to know what you are going through. I want to know eve you thoughts as you progress along. For instance when I see a women in a nice looking bra out line, I only have thoughts of , "that's a pretty bra, if its an underwire or not, maybe the cup size, and of course ENVY!! Lot's of ENVY! I know this is all a crazy idea, but you can't resist it.


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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) New program info. October 16 2007, 8:05 AM


Hiya...okay then....I would say that the cream is better for skin improvement than other. It has USP PROG,which is good;but,its in lower concentration than the Vit E or Avacado oil,so I bet there isnt much in it.
There should be at least 500mg per ounce.
The aloe, lemon grass,rosemary are all good for cleansing and tonifying the skin.The carrot oil??,good for the beta-carotene I suppose.

I'm sorry I keep forgetting how long you've been doing the herbs.
Here's the point. The Flat2Fem protocols state that if you dont have any action going on or you are just at the stage to boost up,then at around 2 months,you are to raise the amounts.

Red Clover 2100-2250;contains genistein.
Fengreek 3600-3720
Saw Palmetto 4860-5400

These amounts are quite more than your doing right now.Maybe you just need to boost up your amounts.Especially the Saw.

You could add Fennel,it has estragole which is a estradiol mimic.Fennel also causes gland development.

Licorice has an compound,glabridin,which is an estradiol mimic,very strong one....and licorice boosts prolactin and it also prevents DHT from forming.

It was recommended to use Fenugreek extract or Wild Yam extract and apply them directly to the breasts. Fenugreek is supposed to be the strongest prolactin promoter.

She recommends to take the herbs for three weeks and for the fourth week add progesterone...while still taking the herbs.
She says use PROG. only for a week.


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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 16 2007, 10:35 AM


Oh I forgot to mention something for you to think about adding.

>Chicken Collagen caps.<

I was reading around over on the other side and I saw a thread for this.

Many of them were having good results of some boob growth from it and several of them actually had growth in their lips. Alright!! Thats for me!
I dont care what anybody says, I like fuller,fatter lips.They just feel more sensual,especially when applying them to another person,,HAHAHA. :-P
And of course you get better nails and things like that.
Collagen is responsible for all kinds of body processes and structural wellness.

You may want to consider using some anise also.Its a prolactin promoter.

Hey Im sorry Ive been practically falling over the keyboard due to sleepiness and I forgot to comment on your last paragraph.
I'm in a fog,so,please excuse any nonsensical words or statements..XD

I think that you'll start getting some growth soon,keep thinking positive.
You may need to start boosting your amounts as you find that your body needs higher doses.
Frankly,Im surprised at that higher amounts in that boost recommendation.They seem quite a lot.I'm not taking anything near that,and I've been afraid that I was ODing my cells.Gee...I guess I dont have to worry about it.
So,its good to know that I can boost also,and then I can get more results hopefully.
It's weird,how I have gotten my big noticeable gains so far,two times its been like, same ol,same ol,same ol,Ker-Pow!!,bigger and firmer like instantly,very strange....this last growth spurt increased the firm tissue section in my breasts greatly.
I call it the milk sinus and ductal mass,because I know what swells up with fluid when I do vacking,and this firm mass is the same tissue area behind my areola.
Well now, since the last spurt those masses are much thicker and wider,and they are growing upwards away from my areola,so they are forming a real breast shape internally.

Sure,I like to chat about life stuff and all,I'm glad you are interested.
I feel silly sometimes talking about myself;but,its good to know that you care about what I'm going through.I feel the same about most everybody also,but I dont want to get to prying,ya know?Like I feel like I'm a snooper or something.
If you ever want to talk together about things,just send me an email,okay?
I'll be happy to talk about whatever you like.
Oh, no,its not crazy to think those things,Anon,I think about stuff like that all the time.My problem is I'm seriously indecisive about fashion and such.Even colors.I love so many things that I cant decide about a simple piece of clothing.
I fully understand the envy thang,oh yeah....very much so.I have it every day when I see lovely women,and wish that I would've been born that way.

As to bras,well,Im not big enough to need one yet;so,I havent been obsessing on the bra issue too much yet....I do like to think about the time when I'll need one at some point. I've read some things about the supporter camisoles with shelf bras built-in,I'm thinking of going that way for right now.
Many women seem to like those,even well endowed women,and the point of them is to not confine or compress the breasts too much.
Which sounds like a good idea to me. I'll be compressing them enough already with my hands....heehee... but really,I'm one to rather be nearly naked when at home and as unencumbered by clothes away from home as possible.
I just have this thang about clothes constricting my body,especially around my hips and rear,,,I dont know why,I just dont like pressure on those spots.
I think it has to do with trying to wear improper fitting clothes for so long.
However,on the other hand, I also have a fetish for tight constricting things,during certain times.
Well,I think that Ive about said too much again. ~Bye oxo,Davilee


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Anon
(no login) Question Davilee... October 17 2007, 1:27 PM


<< You may need to start boosting your amounts as you find that your body needs higher doses.
Frankly,I'm surprised at that higher amounts in that boost recommendation.They seem quite a lot.I'm not taking anything near that,and I've been afraid that I was ODing my cells.Gee...I guess I don't have to worry about it.
So,its good to know that I can boost also,and then I can get more results hopefully. >>


I'm not sure what you meant about this paragraph. Do you mean that part of my program was too high? If so which parts? I just upped the RC, Fennu, and MT to see what happens. Ok... one week on Prog.



Oh yes, wait til you start bra shopping.... all the varieties, types, and colors. Especially panties. Male under clothing is so boring and blah. Finally you can get excited about getting dressed by starting at the undies and working outwards. Every color just builds on the next color. If you feel in a "peachy" mood.... peach panties, etc... I guess Fennel has been living the good life for a long time.


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Davilee
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 19 2007, 8:55 AM


Oh, no,no,no....I'm sorry if that confused ya Anon.
I wasnt refering to *your program,I was refering to the info. I wrote on Oct 16,just above my last entry.
It was the TWO month herb increase plan in the Flat2Fem guide.
I was just saying that you should raise your amounts up to that level stated,and see how you do then.
You have been doing this for two months or more havent you?
Maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway,the point was that if *absolutely* nothing is happening,then you need to raise your amounts you take.
Its just normal,doesnt mean anything bad for you, so dont panic.
I think that if you boost your amounts you will start to get some reactions.
Some negative behaviors that can impede progress are smoking,eating too much sugars,too much caffiene,some meds can impair herbs.
Well,sounds like you have raised some of them..
Yah,go back and check that list,I think 3 posts back,,,,compare what you are doing right now.

Oh yeah,that does really sound like fun shopping for bras and panties and such.I just dont have the money to buy a lot of extra stuff right now.
Panties have less elastic around the waistband than male underwear dont they?
If that is so,then Im all for them.I just cant stand binding stuff around my hips,belly and butt.Its the cutting waistbands that I hate.
Some of the underwear have wide waistbands,and that chaffs me a lot and causes me a lot of irritation.Its maddening.So,I dont wear anything under my clothes usually.
Im getting quite the little belly,and intensely dislike clothes that cut into my flesh.
Now,I like panty hose and such things,as some of them do not have a harsh waistband,and they feel like they hug all my parts at once...NOW that I do like.I really do like the feeling of overall light compression around my lower body..I dont know why,it just feels very good to have a closefitting material wrapped all around the legs and butt and hips and belly.It feels good on my skin.
Im weird,..as long as something isnt like very,very tight in just one spot and is equally tight but not conctricting all over,then Im happy.
I think I will just buy some sports bras for now,all the different bras available just confuses me....I cant decide which one is best.
I'm growing all the time anyway,so I hate to buy something and then just have to pitch it as I outgrow it.

I really dont need a bra right now...I bounce and jiggle more when they are swelled up with fluids,but usually Im fine,as they are firm and tight.
I like the bouncy feelings,actually.Makes me think about them and keep concentrating on growth.Positive thinking dont ya know.
I have thought about problems with my breasts dropping and sagging if I dont start training them,because they are getting bigger all the time and now after chatting with you and someone else mentioning bras to me...Im starting to worry more about them getting way out of shape in the near future.
What do you think Anon?
I want them to drop some as they get heavier and fuller,but I dont want to let them stretch too far and look all baggy...bleeeck!.....
I'm not going to all this trouble just to have saggy,baggy boobs that look like some on a primitive jungle gal.

The main thing that bugs me about bras,is the tightness on my nipples.I have spent a lot of time enlargeing them and now they protrude erect all the time and are very sensitive.Maybe I could get used to it. I recall,some of the women talking about lined bras or soft material bras just for the nipple reasons. The other thing I worried about is squashing my nipples and that causing them to get out of shape after awhile,as they are longish,and they get bent over and flattened if I press things over them.
Im paranoid at screwing up my nipples now.Its kinda funny.
This all makes me sound like a chronic worrier,,but its boobs were talking about,I dont want to mess them about,after spending so much time getting them to look good. Yah,maybe I do worry to much.HAHAHA


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Anon
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 20 2007, 4:58 AM


I don't know if I'd worry about flattening your nipples, only because there are a lot of women out there with long nipples who have worn bra's for years and haven't had the problems. But you probably want a firm enough bra that the nipples stay put and don't move around though.

Another thought was that you may want to do chest exercises to maintain their perkiness. The reason I say this, is I wonder if mens breast will naturally sag more because they don't have all the tissue and structure of a womens breasts? Yes they are the same as womens, but to what degree? Women have been living with estrogen longer so I would guess they have more quantity of the building blocks.

Yes panties have less of a waistband. Hoooray! And they just feel better. Sizing is a problem until you get the right size.After than you'd be throwing all the male undies away.I would try the cotton hi-cuts and see how you like them. The micro fibers may not be as comfortable.

But I did try upping my amounts. I hope that means that all the previous E that was taken hasn't gone to waste? It's just so slow.


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Anon
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 20 2007, 5:01 AM


Oh, yes, been on the program about two months. Will probably to prog for 1-2 weeks, and not take any breaks with the herbs.


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Davilee
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 22 2007, 11:40 AM


Thanks Anon....I do like hearing from someone who likes to talk undies..haha
well,you know why....I like to learn from somebody whos in the know about what all is available and what I should check out,if you need more body measurement info about me to recommend something just ask.
Im all for learning about the stuff you and I were chatting about.
I sure dont have any mum thats going to teach me about it now,at this age.

Oh boy,would that be a lovely day trip with Mum,>What say we go to the dept. store Mum and you can help me choose what bras and panties I should get,hmmmmm? A capital idea!! HAHAHA oh I sure crack myself up.

OR how about as an opening line when introducing myself to a woman,>Hey,we have something in common already,would you like to go with me to the lingerie store and browse around for some nice undies and you can help me fit a bra.<

OR that could also be customised for intro to a man,..Im sure some nice lad would like to help me with that chore....hmmmm....that does sound nice.

That'll get em. Gosh, I digressed.
Its a plea for help,......mental help.

Errr...Okay..getting serious now....well,yes,you are probably right about the nips. I really dont think that mine are going to be hindered any by now.
I still expect them to enlarge some naturally,by the time I get on about 1-2 years.My areolas are actually growing new cells around their edges,increasing their width,slowly but surely. Unless,they are spreading from the outward growth of my breasts? But the edges look different all the time and the areola 'disc' is growing wider away from the original little oil glands.
It would be a good idea to keep the nips from moving around,if they rub too much,they are quite stimulating and distracting.

As far as breast tissue structures within the chest wall,I think that Im good as far as that goes,mine started off like El Zilcho and Ive built them from scratch.They are very tough and firm in the back tissues connected to my chest wall and muscles.They seemed to start growing anchor tissues early on,before much of any other growth except the buds.
They are starting to protrude outwards now(like 2"out to tips from breastbone) and they are firm and barely bouncy when not swelled up.
I'm trying to get more fats built up in them.They are getting a nice shape that I will keep watching to see if I need to do any tweaking as to support.

As for panties,Im high waisted(29-30") and so far getting a big rear(hips/butt,38"),I expect my thighs to get even bigger around.So,those you are suggesting should be like high cut leg on sides? Very good,if thats the case.
Of course,I assume that they fit close and snug and this prevents ride up or bunching?

As to your fear of wasted herbs,nooo,I dont think they are wasted at all.
Heres my theory based on things that Ive read in different places.
When you start taking the P-ests and the Prog. they will probably get stored somewhat into the fat tissues(adipose tissues),for awhile and that kick starts the B-estrogen making in the fats and adrenals.Even aterial walls release B-estrogens.Perhaps the testes will make more B-estrogen also.
I dont know for sure.I think that some of the P-ests will also get pulled out of the fats,where they were stored.
I just need to find out how much of the P-ests actually get stored,and how much gets used,and how much is flushed out.
That depends on whether it's applied topically or orally...or even rectally.They do have a suppository form of estradiol.

Sounds good Anon,just try what Im doing, stay with the herbs,and add the Prog.
also in your routine.
You might want to consider using some USP Natural Estriol,also.
I havent reduced at all,ever since taking those two together,Ive gotten bigger,never smaller.I get a lot of aches and some sharp twinges also,mostly the aches and soreness,...also when I do massages and squeeze them,and the nipple/areola exercizes.

Hold them in between your index,middle and thumb,and pull outwards on them,as far as is comfortable...no pain no gain....pull them and stretch them rythmically,sort of nice and slow...every second or two seconds....were mimicking nursing here...I'm just goin by what I've seen babies and mamas doing.
Well,I also try and grab in the areolas somewhat if I can,which I cant do anymore due to my sinus/ductal mass growing so big now,its too firm to pinch.
You can modify the hold or the timing a bit,as long as you do it for like 5 minutes at a time.I dont know if you can take 10 minutes of that or not.
I cant keep doing it straight on,I get so turned on.
Its like a combo of very nice relaxation and excitation at the same time.
For me its a real comforting thing.I can just zonk out and get relaxed.
I will usually get some amount of engorgement of lymph swelling after doing it for a little bit.The aches and such.

Gotta go to bed,hope this is interesting.~~Davilee




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Louise
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 22 2007, 11:50 AM


In terms of male breast structure I think it depends whether men have Cooper's ligament, as it's stretching of this ligament throughout life that causes sagging.

According to someone's Brava coach nipples (I think they meant aureoles) increase in size with breast size in the smae way as if you draw a sopt on a balloon then inflate it - what a lovely analogy!!


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Anon
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 23 2007, 5:34 AM


Oh I wish there was a formula to grow half dollar sized aereolas. Wouldn't that be great?? But I have upped everything in hopes of progress. Should I do only one week of progesterone creme?I just hope an A cup is not asking too much.

Oh for the panty's, try the Hanes multi-paks. They have a sporty Hi-cut that has a hot pink panty to die for. These are inexpensive enough until you gage your correct size. And the bigger your bottom gets, the better these will fill in. And the fit and feel are great too.

Must be the E having an effect!


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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 23 2007, 3:30 PM


I use the Hanes too. There are some that look like Mens briefs but the cut is different. You can also get them in a more high cut style (which is what I use). I wear them almost of of the time, They are very comfortable. When I work I usually wear reg. mens boxers or briefs. Yuk! Now that the male equiptment Is shrinking somewhat, The ladies undies seem to fit alot better too.;-)


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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Herbs vs HRT October 23 2007, 9:51 PM


Shorts will always be more comfortable than anything designed for women!


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Anon
(no login) Boy shorts October 24 2007, 2:39 AM


Hi Louise,
Since you bought the subject up ... ;-)

Why are boy shorts so popular these days? They do look cute, and shape a womens bottom quite well, but they seem to ride so low on the hip. It seems so uncomfortable. Some even have that dramatic feminine "V" shaped sty;e when looking from the front. I don't see how they saty in place all day. Is there a difference in fit for cotton vs micro fiber? And the numerous colors and styles just blow away men's styles! PS - So far no one has noticed my panty lines!!

Another thing I noticed ... bra's are more hidden on males when the strap adjustment is on the front of the bra. The manufacturers go through all the hype of saying 'this' bra minimizes bra lines, yet those two buckles on the back are like homing beacons. But the front is smooth and line free. But to be honest I have always fell in love with bra outlines visible from the back on women. It tells me so much about your choice in style of bras than the front ever can.

But to stay on track... no noticeable results on my program. Still trying. Only the second day of upping the dosages.


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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 24 2007, 3:37 PM


Hey Anony,breathe.....calm......breathe.......calm......

Okay,.hey now..dont get all worried,ya have to be calm and be patient....

I'd do the Prog for 2 weeks.You want to get estrogen receptors woken up and turned up so the estrogens you are taking can be utilized more quickly.
Also the estrogens have to build up in the tissues,adipose(fat) tissues,for a certain time. You also have to have a certain level of fat deposits on your body...I think 20% fats.
I have more action going on since I started getting fatter,and actually putting on weight.The one starts the other and they are interdependent,it seems.
If you want to start it at one week at first to see what happens then thats good to.You arent going to get hurt by taking for two weeks.
I would get the good strong PROG and get it all over your major fat and meaty spots.From what Ive been piecing together,genemales are going to have to get alot more PROG in the tissues so it will allow the other things.
I was reading a study that showed there are PROG receptors all over the body,but no one knows why as of yet.
Well,I tell you what Im going to do then thats use the strongest topical prog I can get thats not prescription.
Im using estriol also,so Ive got a way different deal going than most people.

I dont know if what Im doing will work for others as my hormones and whatsis are weird to begin with.

I'll say just be patient,and you'll have to wait awhile to see results anyway.
Do you have odd hormone levels that you know of?As far as androgens.
Do you have any liver abnormalities?
A very efficient liver could process the P-Est's right down until they are barely there,(just a theory)OR perhaps you need some cleansing of the liver to make it more efficient so it will utilize them better.

As far as myself,Id already be on pharma hormones if I could afford to pay for them every month.I dont want to screw around anymore.

I know I have good,quick reactions to estrogens,so I just want to get on with the fastest most thorough way of causing my feminisation.

I've already been behind for about 18 years,now Im playing catchup.
Im in my 30's.

Although,Ive heard very good results from T-women who were in their 50's when they started their transition and they have reached a very good level of feminisation within 5-6 yrs.,even their faces have modified enough they didnt need FRS. facial surgery

Hot Damn there is hope for me yet!!! I'm not that masculine anyway so I should have good results if I get on a more potent HT program.
Im just so confused by all the different stuff and seems that everyones on different combos of things,and I just dont know whats the best way to go.

I've been stunned by pics of some peoples changes,its amazing.


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Blu-Jay
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 24 2007, 5:07 PM


It sounds like there's hope for all of us older ones yet. That's some good news Davi Lee.


Yeah, Anon, you need to be patient. The body has a lot to deal with for the next while. First it needs to accept the new 'mones' that you're feeding it. Eventually your body will give in,but it takes time. Breast developement, fat redistribution, skin and hair changes don't come in a matter of days,It can take several months to a few years. You need to remember that millions of cells are changing too. If you are a person that responds quickly to HRT or respond slowly,either way it's going to take a while.
I've been on this for 10 months now,I have some breast developement, some softening of the skin and my ass got a little fatter,but when I look in the mirror, I see that there's quite a way to go yet.
You'll just have to wait it out. Once again,be patient. :-)


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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Herbs vs HRT October 24 2007, 7:10 PM


Hey Anon - RE pants,

I was referring to the fact that when I broke up with my ex I ended up with a lot of his boxers round my house and they were great - really comfy. Women's underwear looks nice but is usually a mixture of scratchy and up-your-crack-y!! And in my experience most women sadly don't wear a bra that matches the knickers, you are told to do this in case you get run over in the street and they cut your clothes off but people never listen.


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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) HAHAHA LOL Louise.... October 25 2007, 7:02 AM


You funny!.... See thats what I was asking about,..I dont want no undies creepin' up my butt cleavage...I keep getting more(cleavage) all the time and so really dont like the idea of having flimsy undies gettin' crammed up my rear.
That would be more annoying than what Im dealing with now.
If those undies Anony mentioned,would cover around the sides of my bum, then they would probably stay in place.I like the idea of the high leg and softer waistband.

Yes,perhaps I should just go with some sort of boxers or whatever.
But there again its like too loose and baggy and shows through thinner pants and skirts,that fit tight around the rear.


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Louise
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 25 2007, 12:52 PM


Ok, to avoid VPL most people would advise a thong (you know it's all going to end up up your butt anyway so might as well be something thin!). My friend prefers French knickers which are the girly shorts but she's quite skinny. In a thong you should buy a size larger than normal otherwise the thin waistband bit presses into the hip area making a bulge above and below. A sporty thong with a wider waist band might be better.


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Davilee
(Login Davi-lee) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 26 2007, 8:19 AM


Oh yeah! Why the heck haven't I thought of thongs?? I'm so dingy.
I think the P-Ests have done some negative things to my brain.hahaha

Actually,a thong would be great,I wouldnt mind that small amount of material between the mounds. That would solve several probs,at once.
I could feel naked, yet still have a little somethin'on to keep certain parts in control.

And besides.....my ass will look awesome wearing those too..HAHAHA....Thats a good incentive to buy.HA!!

Thanks for the suggestions.Yes,the waistband is still my nemesis.
No likein' the bindin'.

Thank you all for good suggestions.I think we should make this a separate thread.....its fun. I think I will do that and transfer over all the related posts.
Then if anyone wants to chat about undies or bras or whatsis,then we can post there. We are a bit off topic now.


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Louise
(no login) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 26 2007, 9:59 PM


Hey DL, not really sure what you meant about waistbands but maybe you need one of these:

http://www.littlewoods.com/rf/navigation/product.do?Mis_item_id=15&product=361543972&D=361543972&Ntt=361543972&Dx=mode%20matchall&Ntk=group_search&Mis_item_loc_id=1&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Np=1&N=95%20103&Nu=this_product&Nty=1&thisprod=361543972&SNtt=yc235&SNu=pca_id

Also, not sure how much you intend to reveal but you may want to use a bright light and a large mirror to make sure there's no hair in places that thongs would reveal (that's about as delicately put as I can manage - hope I haven't caused offence!). Have a great weekend, will do some more sciency research when I get chance and will post anything interesting.


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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 27 2007, 5:08 AM


No offence at all......Oh I am talkin about the cinching or compression of my flesh.I dont like waistbands that cut in as I'm getting a bit more errr...extra fleshy.hahaha I dont have any hair problem,as of yet.
You will hear my screams when I do.

I have this phobia of restricting my development around my hips spots...which isnt that much of a baseless fear,as wearing a compression item such as a corset can indeed cause fat to be displaced to other spots.
I guess Im silly for thinking my undies waistband is going to inhibit my hip fat growth....BUT! I want to take no chances!!HAHA..
I'm doing better in the hip size dept now,Im able to see how my different fat deposits are getting larger and spreading out and will eventually combine together to form one total fat layer from my lower back,down my rear,and around my hips,and down my thighs.I've got all that action goin on except for the spots right on the side of my hips just below my upper pelvic bones that jut out.
Its quite interesting to watch the changes,its slow but sure.
I'm just glad that I'm actually starting to see action going on.
I'm sorry if I get too "free" with describing myself,I have a bad streak of exhibitionism. I know I sound like an immodest slut sometimes.
But Its just that Im deeply facinated how the body changes and transforms,and I am always interested in hearing how others bodies are doing also.
I just get so excited by good changes and ecstatic for others when they get good changes also.

Iam going to try upping my EPO amounts as Ive read the thread over yonder,and it sounds like it helps for fat deposits in the boobs also,I think MomXSeven mentioned that
You know, it does have beta-sitosterol,which I have read increases aromatase functions.


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Anon
(no login) Estrogen receptors October 27 2007, 5:10 AM


So if a person is on estrogen herbs for several months and then kicks in with Progesterone creme, this may kickoff growth?

But the other hand... if a person is thin and took estrogen herbs for several months then does that mean I would have to get fatter first, before the breast tissue starts to come in? You see some women who are walking twigs with two breasts atop. They have narrow hip and waist. Yet even their arms look thin. But for males do we naturally have to get a little bulky first before anything happens?


PS - Where have Morticia and Fennel gone?


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Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Herbs vs HRT October 27 2007, 5:47 AM


You definitely need fat for boobs (the women you refer to are probably fake though!), as you put on some weight your hormones and genetics tell your body where to put it so if you're lucky on the chest, if not the lovehandles. Rather than just stuffing yourself with junkfood, try to concentrate on protein and 'good fat' intake. Protein shakes are good, slim fast also contains a low calorie source of protein, then add some oils like borage / flaxseed / evening primrose. Excess sugar can convert to testosterone so be careful with carb intake. Apparently excrcise helps you respond better to insulin and deal with excess sugar more efficiently. Using Brava and herbs as well as low calorie, high protein diet I have lost 28 lbs while staying the same or slightly bigger round the boobs. Previously when I've been this slim I've had almost nothing, now I'm very full B to just about a C. I hardly excercise at all in case it comes off the chest so still have very slight lovehandles and pretty bad saddlebags - still a work in progress!


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Davilee
(Login Davata) Re: Herbs vs HRT October 27 2007, 7:33 AM


Hey Anony, I'm not sure what to tell anyone anymore....geez,,everybody has different reactions to different combos of things.
I'm getting afraid to tell someone "try this or try that".....
I feel bad for you,I know it hurts ya to not see anything happen at all.

Well,as I've said before,if you are lowfat then you have to have some fat deposits to start generating hormones in.Estrogens are made in adipose tissues as one of their origins.P-Ests and B-Ests are also stored in fat cells.

If you have fat deposits already,then it seems from what I've read as to genemales that it takes awhile as the body starts to shift the fats deposits around.The worst problem is male internal belly fat.It can be the hardest to get rid of. I've never had anything like that so I cannot know what to do exactly about that other than changing diet and exercise and allow the body estrogens or phytoestrogenics that are being added in,to change the internal belly fat into fats in other places.
It seems that the body will take the triglycerides out of one area of fat cells and put them into fat cells in another place.

Anyway,its a big experiment......you need the P-Ests for fat building or redirection....and you also need the PROG and Prolactin for other body changes also NOT just boobage.
They all work together as far as what evidence Ive read in many places.They all are needed for body modification.

Anony,I have read the personal accounts of many T-gals that have started out right at the beginning with PROG in their regimines and they have big boobage now......it works,really....it just takes some time,like years..AND!! thats even for those on the stronger pharma drug estrogens!!!
I dont mean to bring you down..Okay?...I hate to bum ya out. Its just reality for some folks.
Like the facts that keep getting said around.....It takes genegirls several years to develop their breasts...so why would genemales be more efficient?
Although some women like Lucille of Flat2Fab/Fem,think that males can sometimes develop better than women...I Dunno why??...thats just what she thinks. Well,Ginger or Fennel has a T-girl friend and it was stated that she has "huge boobs" now.

My intuition just pings on taking PROG and real estriol.

Yes,I agree with ya Louise....Any very,thin woman I've ever seen has very small breasts,I've not seen very many slender women with big ones.
Its just not the norm.....unless she has been augmented.
There are some women that are naturally narrow hipped and big boobed,but I think they are not very common.I have not noticed very many woman in my region that looked liked that...I have seen very young women that fit that description though.They are so fortunate,because they are still going to get pelvis/hip growth at some point and so they will even out,and look more balanced.

As for me,everybody knows by now that I started out very slender and lowfat through my whole life,I do have natural wider pelvis and narrow waist...but thats just my sex crossup stuff....anyway....the first things that happened to me after being on P-Ests within a week,I started getting breast development right away...I dont know why...I loved it no matter what is the cause...
I think that the P-Est's have "woken up" my female parts that I have and thus I have been developing at a quicker pace than a standard genemale,which I am not.
So,you see my quandry now that I have of suggesting things that I do for someone else to do....HOWEVER...I do judge and decide what to say to someone based on many criteria from many other sources,not just my own odd experience.

I try and seek out a concensus of info. and see what the overall majority reaction or effects are for people considering all different items.

If you are slender and lowfat,like I said you will need to gain weight...thats what I had to do.....***which was my intended thing to achieve just on its own merit.I want to be bigger and curvier,I dont care about being skinny and slender anymore,I hate it,in fact.
BUT...its just a fact for anyone that wants to gain in the boobage dept.,you have to ingest more fat developing resources for your body to utilize....and its like Louise said...you dont go out pigging on as much fatty junk as possible,there are all kinds of good fat building foods and I can give ya a list of what I've compiled as to the best ones.If you want it,that is.

.....well, I confess, I do eat junk sometimes because I like a good hamburger sometimes and I will usually eat like two double chesseburgers at one time,because,I'm into building fat right now and I will throw in some junk every now and then to stoke up the fat depositing.
It goes right to my butt and thighs and lower belly.It's great. I am just trying to find my magic herb/food combo that will shuttle fats right to my boobage,and get some more mass goin' on there.I've got real mammary gland tissues growing well,I want more fat mass on them...well..maybe I'm pushing too fast for what will happen naturally at some point anyway...my breasts seem to be following the standard girls development processes.

In fact,I am actually starting to buildup more fat below my areoli area,and the duct/gland mass is spreading outwards laterally in all directions.
I have this feeling that I'm going to have big freakin boobs in about a year or two,...like they are just going to start growing like crazy soon,they ache almost all the time,....my mum's boobs are quite big and all the women in her family have good sized boobage.
I actually have been afraid of them growing TOO big,and being to large for me to hide anymore,HAHAHA...well,I do want them big ,I just dont want my family to see me feminise so drastically.
I hate to have to get a minimizer for my breasts.I dont want to hinder their growth at all.
My mum has already noticed how nice and rounded and feminine my legs are,they are so great btw...I love my legs now,my knees have almost blended right into the rest of my thigh and shin,but they arent just fat,pugdey..they are nice smooth and rounded and thickening at my thighs and my calves.
My thighs actually touch together now,...Wow..that was a real treat for me to see when I finally achieved that....big thighs!! Whoohoo!
That may seem silly to be so happy about,but this is something that I think about everyday, all the time,...further feminisation and as complete as I can go with it.
After having little skinny legs most of my life,it just amazes and facinates me that I can look like I do now.Even my feet and toes are fatter.Its wild.

I have slim, slender arms and rib cage,naturally,and they havent gotten any fatter...well,thats not exactly true...my muscle has degenerated all over,and I have thicker fat layers overall.My arms are about the same,except I am much weaker than I was several months ago,not like I was a weight lifter before or anything...HAHAHA....I was always weaker,because I have feminine muscle structures...its just now,they have diminished even more than I was before.

Okay,now Im just chattering away about myself again..sorry about that.
I probably just make you feel bad talking about myself.Sorry.

Questing for rounder and curvier.///////Many a quirk have I.