The science that Lotus provides makes this site what it is. It separates this site from the others. It’s funny how my psoriasis goes away, when Lotus returns.

Glad to see a new Lotus post, first time i see one while i registered on this forum.

I have no doubts on the new low risk breast growth plan, of course there are lots of researches about it and Lotus always posts facts, but one thing which has give me questions is the complete absence of any herbal estrogenic source. Isn't it necessary anymore? Is this plan more similar to a pharma hrt program with an hospital doctor or still can be considered NBE? Not sure because those estriol and progesterone cream seems medications which needs a prescription. I'm confused.

Glad to see a new Lotus post, first time i see one while i registered on this forum.

I have no doubts on the new low risk breast growth plan, of course there are lots of researches about it and Lotus always posts facts, but one thing which has give me questions is the complete absence of any herbal estrogenic source. Isn't it necessary anymore? Is this plan more similar to a pharma hrt program with an hospital doctor or still can be considered NBE? Not sure because those estriol and progesterone cream seems medications which needs a prescription. I'm confused.

Hi Alexis, not sure about Italy/EU, but in the US you can find low-dose Estrogen and Progesterone creams (over the counter, or OTC as Lotus uses above) in pharmacies and online. They are generally lower dose (1-10% the amount of hormone) than what you would get with HRT, designed to help women who are dealing with post-menopausal issues or estrogen dominance. 

Because the doses will be a lot lower than prescription HRT patches, any effects will take a lot longer to be seen. But because its trans-dermal, and estradiol rather than phytoestrogens (as in PM), likely to have fewer side effects (e.g. safer). This one for example, as .5 mg estradiol per pump, while the standard of care for trans HRT is going to be 2-4 mg/day estradiol orally.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DFVL6WD/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_E9QSES9C4KFQXQ2E7E1N

I think the thing to note about creams is the absorbed amount obviously varies based on the amount you apply and where you apply it. From what I’ve seen, the amount contained within creams can vary by 10x. So it’s going to be a lot more judgement and ‘do what feels right’ than with PM or supplements, where the dosage is controlled. That said, the amount of hormone is a lot lower too, so the downside risk of over-applying is probably low.

I wonder about the prudence and efficacy of incorporating progesterone cream with a PM regiment (though ive read your stuff on why PM isnt the greatest). Furthermore, how early into ones NBE journey should one add progesterone? Ive seen conflicting statements from "do it immediately" to "do it for the final Tanner stage".

Do people with smaller boob genes have less time before T.E.B, or perhaps can they theoretically grow indefinitely as well, so long as they stall T.E.B indefinitely?

Good to see you back again, Lotus. As nice as it is with just the other progress threads, its not the same without your science posts " alt="" title="">

-Dru

Hi Dru, (thank you for the kind words)

From my experience I can tell you having PC (progesterone cream) early in my program definitely helped. PC helps to mature breasts (including side branching of breast ducts), inhibits DHT, reduces hot flashes, alleviates insomnia, protects against breast cancer, and new find of reducing the chance of DVT by 10-15%, and a few other things.

In the archives of this thread I've discussed how when estrogen is in the presence of progesterone they work synergistically. An example of the two working together is in BC (birth control pills). A side effect from using combo BC is breast growth. When girls have their first menstrual cycle estrogen and Progesterone are released. But, breast bud fusion presents itself in early puberty too, meaning too much estrogen is overstimulating breast buds resulting in the fusion of T.E.B.'s (terminal end buds), in other words poor breast growth outcomes.

In essence, NBE (or even HRT) is starting in a similar puberty stage. Male breasts are dormant up until the time they're not...via NBE/HRT, low T, environmental toxins zapping your gonads...etc. The only difference to male breasts (structurally) we lack the milk ducts that genetic females have, or gynecomastia would look like beautiful breasts after inhibiting T. Though genetic male's can lactate...however it's rare when it does...I know, bummer right?

In my opinion (and from personal experience) progesterone needs to be included on day one for the stated reasons. 

Take care Dru. 

Hopefully I can get to other people questions ASAP (tonight).

Hi there, I'm still very new to this all but I've consistently experimenting for about a year and half now with low doses, staying safe while researching and also trying to nail down exactly what I want out of all this.

From a health standpoint, a low risk plan sounds ideal to try, but what kind of time frame for noticeable changes would you expect with it?

Thanks for all the info, Lotus.

Hi there Marshallen, (nice to meet you):

That's a good approach @ being cautious. The lower risk plan is of course not risk free, nothing is as I'm sure you well know. 

The human body does an amazing job at trying to correct an out of balance system, it's referred to as Hemostasis (keeping your body at its familiar set points). A reference would be starting NBE and adding anti-androgens. The body recognizes that T (testosterone) is going bankrupt, the hypothalamus sends a message to the pituitary and BAM, the signal is sent to LH (luteinizing hormone) to produce T in target tissues...like to the testes and other target tissues. It's called negative feedback loop.

This is just a cursory explanation, as we go further down this rabbit hole we'll touch on other aspects of this (e.g. SHBG sex hormone binding globulin). A study shows high levels of SHBG act as an estrogen amplifier while keeping T in the basement. 

Getting back on track...when this happens T will shoot into the stratosphere compensating for the loose of T. So, you'll hear people say " dang...PM is making me so horny". This is temporary, it'll correct itself because we're retraining T to shut up and sit back. The technical explanation would look like a Supraphysiologic does of T at first. Other examples of this are akin to feeling euphoric at first when trying PM or E2. It's short lived, that's because T is trying to re-establish Hemostasis. 

I was explaining this in another thread as to when a doctor would prescribe intramuscular testosterone injections to a man who has low T. In this example the man (who's probably older) with a higher BMI (body mass index) would see most of that T injection convert to E (estrogen) by way of the aromatase enzyme...until it could re-establish Hemostasis. 

Sorry marshallen, I had to lay all that out in order to bring into focus the lower risk plan. 

Phytoestrogens are nonsteroidal. For example, they can act as estrogen agonists, antagonists, or partial agonists/antagonists. Which basically means an agonists is pro estrogenic, while antagonists are anti-estrogenic, and then the partial agonist/antagonist phytoestrogens can't make up they're damned minds up lol...genistein is like a partial agonist/antagonist, yeah that's right, genistein is a swinger.

Estriol, estradiol cream(s) are bioidentical hormones, phytoestrogens are structurally similar. While bioidentical hormone cream may be weaker than straight HRT therapy it's still stronger than most all phytoestrogens. Then only exception would be if miroestrol/deoxymiroestrol in PM (pueraria mirifica) are biologically active, in which case they've got a stronger binding affinity over estradiol. In this diagram below estradiol is pro ER-α while phytoestrogens are ER-β, 

Bioidentical hormones are pro ER-α, while phytoestrogens are ER- ER-α is pro breast growth while ER-β are more protective in the role of antagonists.


The time frame for growth?, hard to say. Some folks are fast metabolizers while others are slow metabolizers. Systemic inflammation is a key factor that slows growth, and the way I see it, some phytoestrogens compound inner body inflammation...classic examples of that are fatigue, low energy and pink fog. 
 
Hope this helps, good luck.

In this example the man (who's probably older) with a higher BMI (body mass index) would see most of that T injection convert to E (estrogen) by way of the aromatase enzyme...until it could re-establish Hemostasis. 


You just called me fat! 

In this example the man (who's probably older) with a higher BMI (body mass index) would see most of that T injection convert to E (estrogen) by way of the aromatase enzyme...until it could re-establish T

You just called me fat! 

Oh snap. I'm gonna go with science on this one and say that's how it's described in science literature. 

The science that Lotus provides makes this site what it is. It separates this site from the others. It’s funny how my psoriasis goes away, when Lotus returns.

Thank you Stevenator, you've been a good to me and this forum. 

Glad to see a new Lotus post, first time i see one while i registered on this forum.

I have no doubts on the new low risk breast growth plan, of course there are lots of researches about it and Lotus always posts facts, but one thing which has give me questions is the complete absence of any herbal estrogenic source. Isn't it necessary anymore? Is this plan more similar to a pharma hrt program with an hospital doctor or still can be considered NBE? Not sure because those estriol and progesterone cream seems medications which needs a prescription. I'm confused.

Hi Alexis, not sure about Italy/EU, but in the US you can find low-dose Estrogen and Progesterone creams (over the counter, or OTC as Lotus uses above) in pharmacies and online. They are generally lower dose (1-10% the amount of hormone) than what you would get with HRT, designed to help women who are dealing with post-menopausal issues or estrogen dominance. 

Because the doses will be a lot lower than prescription HRT patches, any effects will take a lot longer to be seen. But because its trans-dermal, and estradiol rather than phytoestrogens (as in PM), likely to have fewer side effects (e.g. safer). This one for example, as .5 mg estradiol per pump, while the standard of care for trans HRT is going to be 2-4 mg/day estradiol orally.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DFVL6WD/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_E9QSES9C4KFQXQ2E7E1N

I think the thing to note about creams is the absorbed amount obviously varies based on the amount you apply and where you apply it. From what I’ve seen, the amount contained within creams can vary by 10x. So it’s going to be a lot more judgement and ‘do what feels right’ than with PM or supplements, where the dosage is controlled. That said, the amount of hormone is a lot lower too, so the downside risk of over-applying is probably low.

 

Hi Alexis and diometres, 


Great question Alexis. True, only reishi is herbal. The goal here was to reduce the risk of DVT. While nothing is risk free, I feel this approach can give options to those who want a slow approach. And as I've described in previous posts progesterone cream adds a layer of protection. 

Ultimately, it's best to discuss NBE or HRT with one's physician.

Thank you diometres, I couldn't have said it better myself. Btw, the amazon link you provided is the one I use. For the most part, I try 99% of what I write about.

 Thank you both, 

Hi Lotus, thanks for the kind note - I certainly don’t have the knowledge you do!

I will say your recent thoughts on creams also had me researching a bit. I’m curious about the link between progesterone and lobule/duct development. I’ve seen a number of conflicting research papers: Sonnenblick et al. 2018 seems to indicate HRT with progesterone in men will lead to identical breast structure as cisgender women, while a bunch of others seem to indicate only the fibrous dense tissue is formed in men regardless of HRT regimen. Certainly typical gynocomastia seems to be only dense tissue, so I was curious if the progesterone supplementation is the differentiator for lobule development?

If so, it seems like progesterone would be required not just to further nodule/dense tissue growth, but also to foster lobe/duct development for a ‘full’ breast.

Also curious, have you seen any other research on P/E affecting adipose tissue composition when applied transdermally? I’ve seen recommendations against applying where there is a lot of subcuteneous fat (likely affecting absorption), but am curious if it would have positive growth effects on adipose tissue that is E sensitive? And inversely, if it would impact fat distribution in android regions that is typically more T sensitive?

Thanks much!

It’s good to have you back.