Yesterday, 08:58 AM
This thread is so far going much nicer than I thought it would. Cool. 
I think language, words and terms are of high importance because its language which shapes the ideas and values of the culture that uses it. Obviously English language makes things very different and as English speakers come from all over there world, there's going to be whole lot of conflicts and misunderstandings. I mean English isn't my first language either, its second. Althought I'm quite fluent in it.
I think using AGABs is somewhat relevant, but that depends on where and how its used. For example, "AMAB" on my part is quite irrelevant and might be misleading as its based on a glance of a doctor without any investigation on what's going as babies aren't investigated for intersex conditions most of the time. So I don't see why I should use "AMAB" for myself.
God forbid doctors admitted they can't know the sex of the babies on perfect accuracy by giving their magical glance between their legs.
Then MtF is a bit problematic in my opinion, because it emphasises the male, it kinda keeps conveying the idea that trans woman is always a man no matter what. But for simplicity its useful for clarity especially in social sense as especially anyone older than a kid will have lived significant time in male social role before transition. Then again, has a trans woman ever truly been "male" to begin with? No, she has not, as you are born as a trans woman, or you're not. We are female wired at least in our brain, or it could be even more thorough than just brain chemistry. I don't think any trans woman has ever truly been a man to begin with. If we were, being who we are would be a choice. Maybe it is a choice to some people? I can't know, but I wouldn't discard the much repeated story how many trans women have been, on at least some level, aware that they're different from what they're told they were. This is true onmy part as I started toquistion my experience in around age four to six. Basically soon after the time that a child starts to develop a sense of gender and sex. Of course many others start to question much later.
Anyway, I see MtF/FtM useful for its simplicity, but also problematic as its an oversimplification for much more complex issue.
I can't use "genetic male" for myself, it would be dishonest. I can't be "male" because I'm intersex. My body behaves in strange way and has developed in a way men do not. This was evident already when I was kid and especially in the way my puberty happened. About this I've posted in detail in my main thread somewhere.
But then, I do have male looking genitals, I do have activated Y chromosome obviously since otherwise I wouldn't have developed outer genitalia the way guys have it. And my DNA test found my father line which is tracked by Y chromosome and I had to update their information so they have my gender marker corrected. I can only keep telling that I'm intersex, as my body has developed sex characteristics of both sexes. I have full or partial female genitalia inside me, while outside looks male, and likely I have one testicle and one ovotesticle. So I can't be called a "genetic male".
I think "biological male/female" is totally wrong because there's a problem with definition as human biology is far more complex than the typical binary thinking of it. Here's a similar problem as with MtF/FtM, its an over simplification of a complex system that is human biology. There are enough deviations and also exogenously generated changes to obscure the meaning of biological male/female. Its one of these terms which is accurate in a lot of cases, but inaccurate in others.
Distinction of sex and gender makes sense in English language, or any highly gendered language which has different words for both. In Finnish there's only "sukupuoli" which is used for both, and usually clarified by the context. For example "transsukupuolinen" means both transgender and transsexual at the same time, and could be used to replace either. The contexts (hopefully.) tells what the details are, as in is it about a social gender roles, gender presentation, or is is about physical sex characteristics and so on.
I use both those terms, I don't think transsexual is outdated or useless, its all about the context. I call myself intersex and transsex(ual) all the time because both are true. And transgender is also useful for making sense to it. For example, all non binary people are transgender in some way, but not all of them are transsexual as some of them (Like my fiancé) are not doing a physical transition. In this sense, a trans woman who does social transition only, but no physical changes to her body is transitioning her gender but not her sex. However, those who do a full physical sex transition do change their sex to the extent that medical knowledge and techniques allow which is far more extnesive than often thought. The changes from long term HRT alone are massive! We are rewriting our bodies on cellular level and completely rewiring our brain functions, sensations and visibly grow and change our secondary sex characteristics. And then comes in the, for now, necessary surgical changes. Which are very real on making a sex change happen. You know it for a fact, that many of us would rush for getting uterus transplants, lab grown body parts and hacking our genetics with CRISPR to make our transitions absolute and complete on all sex characteristics there is if it were possible.
So, considering this, there is a good use for terms transsex and transsexual. They're not slurs, they're not outdated, they're perfectly descriptive of what I am doing for example, and I think Alice is too and so on.
Cis as in cisgender and cissex are descriptive and useful. "Cis" as a descriptor is not a slur, it has never been used as a slur, its invented for being a descriptor of people who do not transition their sex/gender vs. transgender or transsex people who do. That's the only reason why its used and its perfect for the context of differentiating life experience etc.
I kind of like the old use of Cissex, the idea was that while transition is in progress, I'm transsex and when its ready, then I become cissex as the end result both physically and socially has almost zero difference to cis sex woman. It is thought as a term for current life situation post transition. It makes sense, obviously not everybody likes to use it like that and its largely seen as outdated. In my case, that would be inaccurate because I will never stop being intersex physically, but in my life already now, I live much like a cis sex women do. To the outside world irl, there is no difference. I am just one of the women as I pass at all times.
The term "to pass" for a cis woman, I think that is somewhat problematic because being able to assimilate should not be a requirement for a happy life for trans person. It used to be a requirement to even get transition care back in the day and that was highly discriminating and unfair. I think its ok to use the term because it quickly conveys the idea of what it means. But to use "cis passability" as a requirement or for valuing people is extremely wrong. Note that there are endless number of cis sex people who do not pass for their sex/gender. I know many both men and women who are mistaken for all the time. So they do not "pass", they have the same issue as visible trans person does. So passing, not a good concept as any kind of value indicator or a requirement.
Chromosomes keep on being mentioned so much, its kinda strange because most people cannot be 100% certain of theirs as its not certain without karyotype testing. Most people will never require it. I couldn't easily get it done either, I would love to know which setup I have as I'm almost certain its not a typical XY, more likely XXY or a chimeratic one which means that I may have different chromomosomes in different parts of my body. Only thing I'm certain of is an activated Y chromosome. I don't think its wise to overemphasise chromos, they do not matter much after birth anyway, everything else has an bigger impact afterwards. For example, does chromosomes make lives of trans people or intersex people any different in daily life? Most likely it doesn't. Will anyone care a damn thing which ones you have? Probably not. Does it matter in the context of this forum? Maybe, but probably not.
I think the "genetic males" in the forum title is a bit annoying, but its also descriptive as almost everyone here comes from the starting point or full or partial male development in puberty and most of the time T dominant, maly typical hormone balance. Which is obviously the biggest obstacle to conquer on the way to breast growth and or full body feminisation in case of sex transition by HRT. I don't like the title here, but I don't know anything better to replace it either. At least when the "biological males" was taken away, that was a smart move. I remember reading about Lotus arranging that. It was a great move because "genetic males" is more descriptive and not obviously transphobic in that context. At least its not that bad. But its been misused a lot, I've been told to get the fuck out because this forum is for biological or genetic males, and I'm not male. This is of course a strawman argument, a crutch to try to get rid of me and absolutely transphobic use of those terms. This is why I've said many times that "biological male" is a transphobic dogwhistle. Hateful right wing media outlets use it like that all the time, I wish nobody here would and rather speak of "genetic males" instead.
Sex change or sex transition I think are quite decent and descriptive terms. They're absolutely fitting to my situation, again due simplicity. My coming bottom surgery is a "sex change" of my external genitalia, I could also call it re-arrangement of my vulva to have a vaginal canal which I naturally don't have. And what I'm doing is sex transition of those traits which weren't fully female ones. Claiming that sex is immutable and never changing is false, its a lie, an untruth, and against medical knowledge of what HRT and surgeries accomplish. So any claim that sex cannot cahnge or sex transition can't happen is transphobic and categorically false. I want you all to pay extra attention to this, the science minded people can go on a searcfor study articles on these matters to get a deeper understanding of how this all works. Some trans people do not like these terms either, but again, they're descriptive and should be considered in the context.
Getting pronouns right it highly important in all gendered languages. Note that Finnish language is extremely gender neutral, we do not have gendered pronouns at all. Him/her/they is always just "hän" no matter who it is. Only typically gendered words are mostly names of professions ending in mies=man, and otherwise everything is very neutral. This is why I can make mistakes in English language some times, messing up pronouns can happen as in myfirst language its not a thing, although I mistake rarely. For example, my fiancé goes by she/they but mostly I just keep calling her a she as it just comes naturally when typing or talking. I know she's not pissed off about it, as a FInnish speaker she doesn't mind the pronouns as much either. Obviously this is way more important issue to anyone who speaks highly gendered language and that should be taken in consideration. And no getting pissed off about getting corrected on it! This is one of the shortest simplest identifiers there is and its easily building up confidence when its done correctly. I know I felt super nice especially in early transition when people would get my pronouns right. Then again, in real life I don't care as we don't have them here like that.
This post is getting way longer than I planned, I have to get the day started and do stuff...
I hope this topic takes off and poeple give a good thought or few to this stuff. We need to be aware of language as words carry ideas and convey attitudes, which in last few years have gone so terribly worse. BN cannot allow transphobic language to seep in, people have to understand how it works. There are so many LGBT posters here, and even cis hetero crossdressers at least rub elbows with LGBT culture a whole lot, obviously, its blatant af. A cishet man growing boobs is already doing such gender bending that everyone should consider how they think of the world around them, and the extremely diverse bunch of people who get drawn to growing boobs. I think a boob growing cishet man being transphobic is an oxymoron as he himself is also changing his sex cracteristics, albeit for different reasons and maybe with different methods.
Language is hugely important, I hope this thread takes off in a positive way.
I think language, words and terms are of high importance because its language which shapes the ideas and values of the culture that uses it. Obviously English language makes things very different and as English speakers come from all over there world, there's going to be whole lot of conflicts and misunderstandings. I mean English isn't my first language either, its second. Althought I'm quite fluent in it.
I think using AGABs is somewhat relevant, but that depends on where and how its used. For example, "AMAB" on my part is quite irrelevant and might be misleading as its based on a glance of a doctor without any investigation on what's going as babies aren't investigated for intersex conditions most of the time. So I don't see why I should use "AMAB" for myself.
God forbid doctors admitted they can't know the sex of the babies on perfect accuracy by giving their magical glance between their legs.
Then MtF is a bit problematic in my opinion, because it emphasises the male, it kinda keeps conveying the idea that trans woman is always a man no matter what. But for simplicity its useful for clarity especially in social sense as especially anyone older than a kid will have lived significant time in male social role before transition. Then again, has a trans woman ever truly been "male" to begin with? No, she has not, as you are born as a trans woman, or you're not. We are female wired at least in our brain, or it could be even more thorough than just brain chemistry. I don't think any trans woman has ever truly been a man to begin with. If we were, being who we are would be a choice. Maybe it is a choice to some people? I can't know, but I wouldn't discard the much repeated story how many trans women have been, on at least some level, aware that they're different from what they're told they were. This is true onmy part as I started toquistion my experience in around age four to six. Basically soon after the time that a child starts to develop a sense of gender and sex. Of course many others start to question much later.
Anyway, I see MtF/FtM useful for its simplicity, but also problematic as its an oversimplification for much more complex issue.
I can't use "genetic male" for myself, it would be dishonest. I can't be "male" because I'm intersex. My body behaves in strange way and has developed in a way men do not. This was evident already when I was kid and especially in the way my puberty happened. About this I've posted in detail in my main thread somewhere.
But then, I do have male looking genitals, I do have activated Y chromosome obviously since otherwise I wouldn't have developed outer genitalia the way guys have it. And my DNA test found my father line which is tracked by Y chromosome and I had to update their information so they have my gender marker corrected. I can only keep telling that I'm intersex, as my body has developed sex characteristics of both sexes. I have full or partial female genitalia inside me, while outside looks male, and likely I have one testicle and one ovotesticle. So I can't be called a "genetic male".
I think "biological male/female" is totally wrong because there's a problem with definition as human biology is far more complex than the typical binary thinking of it. Here's a similar problem as with MtF/FtM, its an over simplification of a complex system that is human biology. There are enough deviations and also exogenously generated changes to obscure the meaning of biological male/female. Its one of these terms which is accurate in a lot of cases, but inaccurate in others.
Distinction of sex and gender makes sense in English language, or any highly gendered language which has different words for both. In Finnish there's only "sukupuoli" which is used for both, and usually clarified by the context. For example "transsukupuolinen" means both transgender and transsexual at the same time, and could be used to replace either. The contexts (hopefully.) tells what the details are, as in is it about a social gender roles, gender presentation, or is is about physical sex characteristics and so on.
I use both those terms, I don't think transsexual is outdated or useless, its all about the context. I call myself intersex and transsex(ual) all the time because both are true. And transgender is also useful for making sense to it. For example, all non binary people are transgender in some way, but not all of them are transsexual as some of them (Like my fiancé) are not doing a physical transition. In this sense, a trans woman who does social transition only, but no physical changes to her body is transitioning her gender but not her sex. However, those who do a full physical sex transition do change their sex to the extent that medical knowledge and techniques allow which is far more extnesive than often thought. The changes from long term HRT alone are massive! We are rewriting our bodies on cellular level and completely rewiring our brain functions, sensations and visibly grow and change our secondary sex characteristics. And then comes in the, for now, necessary surgical changes. Which are very real on making a sex change happen. You know it for a fact, that many of us would rush for getting uterus transplants, lab grown body parts and hacking our genetics with CRISPR to make our transitions absolute and complete on all sex characteristics there is if it were possible.
So, considering this, there is a good use for terms transsex and transsexual. They're not slurs, they're not outdated, they're perfectly descriptive of what I am doing for example, and I think Alice is too and so on.
Cis as in cisgender and cissex are descriptive and useful. "Cis" as a descriptor is not a slur, it has never been used as a slur, its invented for being a descriptor of people who do not transition their sex/gender vs. transgender or transsex people who do. That's the only reason why its used and its perfect for the context of differentiating life experience etc.
I kind of like the old use of Cissex, the idea was that while transition is in progress, I'm transsex and when its ready, then I become cissex as the end result both physically and socially has almost zero difference to cis sex woman. It is thought as a term for current life situation post transition. It makes sense, obviously not everybody likes to use it like that and its largely seen as outdated. In my case, that would be inaccurate because I will never stop being intersex physically, but in my life already now, I live much like a cis sex women do. To the outside world irl, there is no difference. I am just one of the women as I pass at all times.
The term "to pass" for a cis woman, I think that is somewhat problematic because being able to assimilate should not be a requirement for a happy life for trans person. It used to be a requirement to even get transition care back in the day and that was highly discriminating and unfair. I think its ok to use the term because it quickly conveys the idea of what it means. But to use "cis passability" as a requirement or for valuing people is extremely wrong. Note that there are endless number of cis sex people who do not pass for their sex/gender. I know many both men and women who are mistaken for all the time. So they do not "pass", they have the same issue as visible trans person does. So passing, not a good concept as any kind of value indicator or a requirement.
Chromosomes keep on being mentioned so much, its kinda strange because most people cannot be 100% certain of theirs as its not certain without karyotype testing. Most people will never require it. I couldn't easily get it done either, I would love to know which setup I have as I'm almost certain its not a typical XY, more likely XXY or a chimeratic one which means that I may have different chromomosomes in different parts of my body. Only thing I'm certain of is an activated Y chromosome. I don't think its wise to overemphasise chromos, they do not matter much after birth anyway, everything else has an bigger impact afterwards. For example, does chromosomes make lives of trans people or intersex people any different in daily life? Most likely it doesn't. Will anyone care a damn thing which ones you have? Probably not. Does it matter in the context of this forum? Maybe, but probably not.
I think the "genetic males" in the forum title is a bit annoying, but its also descriptive as almost everyone here comes from the starting point or full or partial male development in puberty and most of the time T dominant, maly typical hormone balance. Which is obviously the biggest obstacle to conquer on the way to breast growth and or full body feminisation in case of sex transition by HRT. I don't like the title here, but I don't know anything better to replace it either. At least when the "biological males" was taken away, that was a smart move. I remember reading about Lotus arranging that. It was a great move because "genetic males" is more descriptive and not obviously transphobic in that context. At least its not that bad. But its been misused a lot, I've been told to get the fuck out because this forum is for biological or genetic males, and I'm not male. This is of course a strawman argument, a crutch to try to get rid of me and absolutely transphobic use of those terms. This is why I've said many times that "biological male" is a transphobic dogwhistle. Hateful right wing media outlets use it like that all the time, I wish nobody here would and rather speak of "genetic males" instead.
Sex change or sex transition I think are quite decent and descriptive terms. They're absolutely fitting to my situation, again due simplicity. My coming bottom surgery is a "sex change" of my external genitalia, I could also call it re-arrangement of my vulva to have a vaginal canal which I naturally don't have. And what I'm doing is sex transition of those traits which weren't fully female ones. Claiming that sex is immutable and never changing is false, its a lie, an untruth, and against medical knowledge of what HRT and surgeries accomplish. So any claim that sex cannot cahnge or sex transition can't happen is transphobic and categorically false. I want you all to pay extra attention to this, the science minded people can go on a searcfor study articles on these matters to get a deeper understanding of how this all works. Some trans people do not like these terms either, but again, they're descriptive and should be considered in the context.
Getting pronouns right it highly important in all gendered languages. Note that Finnish language is extremely gender neutral, we do not have gendered pronouns at all. Him/her/they is always just "hän" no matter who it is. Only typically gendered words are mostly names of professions ending in mies=man, and otherwise everything is very neutral. This is why I can make mistakes in English language some times, messing up pronouns can happen as in myfirst language its not a thing, although I mistake rarely. For example, my fiancé goes by she/they but mostly I just keep calling her a she as it just comes naturally when typing or talking. I know she's not pissed off about it, as a FInnish speaker she doesn't mind the pronouns as much either. Obviously this is way more important issue to anyone who speaks highly gendered language and that should be taken in consideration. And no getting pissed off about getting corrected on it! This is one of the shortest simplest identifiers there is and its easily building up confidence when its done correctly. I know I felt super nice especially in early transition when people would get my pronouns right. Then again, in real life I don't care as we don't have them here like that.
This post is getting way longer than I planned, I have to get the day started and do stuff...
I hope this topic takes off and poeple give a good thought or few to this stuff. We need to be aware of language as words carry ideas and convey attitudes, which in last few years have gone so terribly worse. BN cannot allow transphobic language to seep in, people have to understand how it works. There are so many LGBT posters here, and even cis hetero crossdressers at least rub elbows with LGBT culture a whole lot, obviously, its blatant af. A cishet man growing boobs is already doing such gender bending that everyone should consider how they think of the world around them, and the extremely diverse bunch of people who get drawn to growing boobs. I think a boob growing cishet man being transphobic is an oxymoron as he himself is also changing his sex cracteristics, albeit for different reasons and maybe with different methods.
Language is hugely important, I hope this thread takes off in a positive way.