[Lotus]

Holy sh**, I was totally wrong, well before you bust a gut in euphoria lol I'll explain.

DHT might have a roll in an estrogenic action, don't get me wrong it's still a bad mother.....only don't get all fluffy yet.

It's a bit of a stretch but we still need to disclose the link:

Recent data have shown that DHT may be converted into 5α-androstane- 3β-17β-diol (3β-diol) in a virtually irreversible reaction. Once considered inactive, 3β-diol is present in high concentrations in the male and indeed has biological activity. However, 3β-diol does not bind to the androgen receptor (AR), but rather to ERα and ERβ, with higher affinity for ERβ. Based upon these findings, we hypothesized that the modulation of AQP9 by DHT could be indirectly mediated by 3β-diol.

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1615873/


Effects of 3-beta-diol, an androgen metabolite with intrinsic estrogen-like effects,

Abstract

Background: Fluid homeostasis is critical for normal function of the male reproductive tract and aquaporins (AQP) play an important role in maintenance of this water and ion balance. Several AQPs have been identified in the male, but their regulation is not fully comprehended. Hormonal regulation of AQPs appears to be dependent on the steroid in the reproductive tract region. AQP9 displays unique hormonal regulation in the efferent ductules and epididymis, as it is regulated by both estrogen and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in the efferent ductules, but only by DHT in the initial segment epididymis. Recent data have shown that a metabolite of DHT, 5-alpha- androstane-3-beta-17-beta-diol (3-beta-diol), once considered inactive, is also present in high concentrations in the male and indeed has biological activity. 3-beta-diol does not bind to the androgen receptor, but rather to estrogen receptors ER-alpha and ER-beta, with higher affinity for ER-beta. The existence of this estrogenic DHT metabolite has raised the possibility that estradiol may not be the only estrogen to play a major role in the male reproductive system. Considering that both ER-alpha and ER-beta are highly expressed in efferent ductules, we hypothesized that the DHT regulation of AQP9 could be due to the 3-beta-diol metabolite.

Methods: To test this hypothesis, adult male rats were submitted to surgical castration followed by estradiol, DHT or 3-beta-diol replacement. Changes in AQP9 expression in the efferent ductules were investigated by using immunohistochemistry and Western blotting assay.

Results: Data show that, after castration, AQP9 expression was significantly reduced in the efferent ductules. 3- beta-diol injections restored AQP9 expression, similar to DHT and estradiol. The results were confirmed by Western blotting assay.

Conclusion: This is the first evidence that 3-beta-diol has biological activity in the male reproductive tract and that this androgen metabolite has estrogen-like activity in the efferent ductules, whose major function is the reabsorption of luminal fluids.





a) It has been shown that 3β-diol may have hormonal activity, not acting through the AR, but rather as a ligand for both ERα and ERβ.

b) 3β-diol has higher affinity for ERβ [31], which is abun- dant in the efferent ductule epithelium [40].

c) In human testis, the 3β-diol concentration is higher than DHT and estradiol [44,45]. It is reasonable to postu- late that high concentrations of this metabolite may enter the lumen of efferent ductules.

d) The existence of this estrogenic DHT metabolite has raised the possibility that estradiol may not be the major estrogen in males [29]. For instance, in the prostate there is a growing body of evidence that 3β-diol, acting through ERβ, may regulate important physiological events [26,28,32,46].

Also noteworthy is the fact that 3β-diol stimulates ERβ induced transcriptional activity equal to the cognate lig- and estradiol, and the transcriptional selectivity of 3β-diol for ERβ is much greater than its binding selectivity [30,46]

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Here's the link-see if you can pick it up-

   

[twinklepose]

So, what does this mean in layman's terms, Lotus? I don't understand a word of that! And does it mean we don't need to bother with white peony (or was it reishi?!)

[bobie]

Interesting stuff lotus, since i started pharma 7 months ago i just seem to keep piling on the pounds i joined myfitnesspal about 3 months ago as a way to keep track of what im eating and drinking but am still putting on weight, i wasnt underweight to start with either, currently about 200 lbs at 5ft 11" i tend to watch what i eat and drink during the week and allow myself to have treats and alcohol at the weekends (within reason) and if im careful i can just about keep my intake under 1600 calories a day, main problem is im always hungry these days! it doesnt help that im what you would call a fussy eater, have been since a child although im better than i was, i dont eat most meats and a number of the common veggies i cant stand such as broccoli, cauliflower, mushrooms, courgettes (thats probably it) so coming up with a sensible diet isnt so straight forward since i lean more towards the veggie dishes, i also tend to just stick to easy processed foods i can take out the freezer and pop in the oven although i do have my moments since i actually love cooking, just the time it takes to prepare and the washing up im not so keen on, obviously also want to watch that dieting doesnt effect my development, could really do with sitting down and coming up with a sensible balanced diet i can stick to

[Lotus]

So, what does this mean in layman's terms, Lotus? I don't understand a word of that! And does it mean we don't need to bother with white peony (or was it reishi?!)

No no, don't stop WP.

It just means that we have another tool in the tool shed for NBE, or in other words the prostrate and male reproductive organs has more estrogenic pathways (& production) than previously thought. I'm just in the process of connecting the dots and how these metabolites can help us. (Some theorized other metabolites had no value and dismissed them, here we clearly this that's not the case).


This next paragraph explains the process and is a step in the right direction.


Concentrations of aromatase and estradiol in the prostate are low, indicating that estradiol may not be the only estrogenic molecule to play a role in the prostate. It is known that DHT can be metabolized to 5alpha-androstane-3beta,17beta-diol (3beta-diol), a hormone that binds to ERbeta but not to AR. The concentration of 3beta-diol in prostate is much higher than that of estradiol. Based on the high concentration of 3beta-diol and since this metabolite is a physiological ERbeta ligand, we hypothesized that 3beta-diol would be involved in the regulation of ERbeta expression.

And this might help too.



   

An endocrine pathway in the prostate, ERbeta, AR, 5alpha-androstane-3beta,17beta-diol, and CYP7B1, regulates prostate growth.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12370428

[twinklepose]

So is this bad or good for those of us who might, one day, just possibly, like to consider fatherhood?

[Demon Lord Etna]

One I don't see mentioned nearly enough is black cohosh. It has a very similar make up to saw palmetto, but is more stake in the raw herb form so it doesn't need any binders. This makes it gram for gram more effective in the long run.

[Lotus]

Hey there bobie,

Maybe you've noticed a shift in fat metabolism? (Fat redistribution, especially subcutaneous) and that's what hrt will do, shift the fat stores to hips and ass, (breast tissue too) plus estrogen drives hunger.

How much vitamin C is in your diet?, it helps oral E metabolize better. Yeah, the processed food isn't doing you any favors, in fact it might be counter productive. Imo it causes oxidative stress, which is almost as bad as xenoestrogens lol. I'm suggesting eating 4-5 smaller meals throughtout the day.

I'm not a calorie counter, if your weight is ok for you great, just shoot for a balanced diet with healthy fats, protein, fruits, veggies (lol), fiber and hydration. Fat satiates, makes us happy, just make sure it's not trans-fat, fatty-acids are actually 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors and aromatase boosters, (man!!) if that isn't a new weapon for NBE I don't know what else is lol.

Since shifting the balance towards healthy fats & proteins in November I added over an inch+ of breast growth, plus the added curves to the hips and bum is quite noticeable lol. The battle over the middle is/will be fought using fatty acids, it's supposed the reduced the gut, or so they say.

Coconut oil is one of those gut busting tools, a couple of tablespoons daily is what's suggested. Walnuts are awesome, I add some dark chocolate morsels and that's a good trail mix to snack on. Snack on blueberries too, rich in antioxidants (which is key for NBE).

Our NBE/HRT plans will fall dreadfully short if diet is not addressed, and the huge amounts of $$$ spent on supplementing goes down the toilet. So, time to kick the whole program in the behind and make it work smarter, not harder don't yah think?.

[pom19]

Thanks Lotus for taking your time to write this, very beneficial. POM

[Lotus]

So is this bad or good for those of us who might, one day, just possibly, like to consider fatherhood?

You mean NBE in general?, if you have any concerns I'd look into storing (sperm banking), and talk to someone about all this, namely a medical professional.

NBE will have an affect, to what extent is a good question, whether it's directly or indirectly cannot be individually predicted, again, thus the need to speak to someone. There are those of us who aren't really concerned about reproducing, and that's something worth repeating on occasion.

[Lotus]

One I don't see mentioned nearly enough is black cohosh. It has a very similar make up to saw palmetto, but is more stake in the raw herb form so it doesn't need any binders. This makes it gram for gram more effective in the long run.

Hi Etna,

How much black cohosh do you currently take?