[Isabelle]

Kidney pain and even stones are also a symptom of too much progesterone. I linked the lists of symptoms from here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34708#pid34708

[notrenoir]

My experience with stones is first hand - including a 17mm stone that had to be blasted with lithotripsy. Most stones are calcium based and you only feel them when they are on the move. That being said, I had another experience 2 years ago this past June. I thought I had another stone developing and went to the doctor. The xray didn't show anything but they knew I had a history of stones. They sent to get a ctscan and two hours later I was scheduled to have a kidney removed that had renal cell cancer. This is not something to play with. I would urge you to see a urologist or other doctor as soon as possible. If mine had not been caught as soon as it was, I would be on dialysis today. Best wishes.

[chrishoney]

I do have a medical degree and deal with low back pain patients almost daily. Renal colic (pain from kidney stones) is no fun and can be quite severe. Of course it is IMPOSSIBLE to diagnose anything via a forum like this. The following is provided to help you make a more informed decision as to treatment if your symptoms exacerbate.

Renal colic symptoms include: Acute excruciating flank and upper outer abdominal quadrant pain. The pain can radiate into the the lower abdominal, bladder, and perineal areas including the scrotum in males. Nausea, vomiting, urinary urgency and frequency, and cool clammy skin may also be present. ANY sign of fever, chills or sweats are indications of infection and represent an emergent condition which warrant IMMEDIATE communication with a physician or better yet a trip to your local ER.

Renal calculi (stones) form as four basic types: calcium, magnesium ammonium phosphate, uric acid, and cystine, with 80 to 90% being calcium. Most stones are radiopaque and show up on abdominal radiographs. At least half of all stones pass spontaneously and recurrence is most often controlled via diet modification and adequate fluid intake--so, if you have a stone, drink LOTS of water, much more than you think is too much in the initial period. Stones can be associated with underlying disease such as hyperparathyroidism, which must be treated effectively to prevent recurrence. If you have recurring stones--get it checked out by a physician to rule out a comorbidity.

Some people have reported muscle aches and leg cramps while on relatively high doses of PM, so it is conceivable your symptoms are muscular, though without a precipitating incident or prior history of low back pain, I would be looking for other causes since low back pain is almost always much lower than you are reporting.

Keep an eye on this. If your symptoms recur or worsen--get help right away.

Hope this helps.

[sfem]

I don't know who assigns the stars around here, but someone put some more on chrishoney's profile! That's an outstanding post!

[mydreamisGcup]

wow this is scary :O i take pm and only have 1 kidney(not ill just how i was born)

[chrishoney]

It doesn't have to be scary. In the absence of infection (which is most of the time), kidney stones are just a pain, literally! You just have to be smart, and NOT ignore important signs and symptoms, just hoping they will go away. I have not read any reports on this as a side effect of PM, but on the other hand, all the research I have read was using much lower dosages, except for toxicity and LD50 testing.

If I was going to guess, and based on previous reports of leg cramps in other PM users, I would say PM has some effect on calcium and/or potassium metabolism such that increased serum calcium levels result. These increased calcium levels are usually easily handled by the kidneys if the person maintains adequate hydration. Perhaps Byrony is more susceptible than normal to stone formation if there is more than his usual levels of calcium in the blood. Perhaps he was slightly (even sub-clinically) dehydrated. Just a guess though. As someone else pointed out, the key is to drink adequate quantities of water. In my experience, most people are on the dehydrated side and don't normally drink enough. For myself, I have switched over to drinking mugs of spearmint tea during the day in place of the coffee I used to drink. Keeps me very well hydrated.

[bryony]

Hi,
Many thanks for taking so much trouble over this! I've not logged in recently, thanks to a heavy cold...ugh!

So I went a day with no PM - no pain. Yesterday, I had one AM - no pain, then one in the evening - a slight ache in the night when I turned over in bed and compressed my right side. It was very mild, but isn't this weird?

As my cold seems even heavier today, and I'm taking antibiotics also, I thought it would be safer to leave off them again... and, of course, no pain again.

Definitely odd... and why only the right kidney area?

I'll keep you posted - thanks again!

B.

Ps area behind nipples now have firm, tender, spherical masses, about 1cm diameter! They seem to have worked their way into the nipples as they now seem shorter and wider at the base... (don't know it that's interesting to report! :-)

[beverley.rose]

I do get pains from time to time on my right side (I have two sides so it is a 50/50 chance) but not down at the kidney. Mine strike higher up on the back of the rib cage just under the bottom edge of the shoulder blade but I put that down to posture because I tend to get the discomfort when sitting bolt upright.

I do not recall getting this before PM, but my PM usage coincides with losing over 2 stones in weight so that may have changed my posture.

Just my 2p worth

Beverley

[bryony]

Hi Folks,

I thought you might find an update to my concerns about PM with the flank area of my back, (i.e. was it kidney or muscular? And does PM affect it?) would be of interest

Chrishoney suggested that perhaps PM produced increased potassium levels, so I have been experimenting over the last 3 weeks with dosage.

Well, I went cold turkey for 4 days. Interestingly I got more breast prickles than usual over that time. I took one a day for the next 2 days with no ill effects.

I took two (at the same time) the following day and got a stiff feeling in my flank, so went back to one the following day. The feeling persisted, so I went 0,1,0,1 with no ill effects. Then 1,1,1 followed by 2 (1 am/pm) for the next two days.

My big experiment was to space four pills out over the whole day, i.e. every 4/5 hours. I'm on my fourth day of this with no appreciable stiffness feelings, so, maybe I am sensitive to the level of PM in my blood?

Anyhow, as I am now getting the 'recommended' dosage in per day with no ill effects, I am going to chicken out of seeing the doctor. I really have no idea what I would say. It's all a bridge further away at the moment.

Growth Update
===========

When I started, (14-Sep) I was 36" under bust, 37" over the nipples.
When I resumed after "cold turkey" (11-Oct) I had by then consumed 122 pills (ave 4.5 per day) and had increased to 37.5"

Two weeks later, after only another 24 pills (ave 1.5 / day) I am now up to 38"!! And this at a time when I am losing weight.

Breast buds are now about 1.5" diameter spheres., and, oh boy, do my nipples stick through my shirts.... (I'm going to see my daughter this weekend for the first time since I started... I wonder if she will notice?)

Are these typical results?

As usual, I'm cross-posting to B-N and C-B-T as they are both really good reads!

Thanks to all for all the good advice!

B.

[sfem]

Great update. Glad to hear you have a handle on how it affects you and have found a level that works and causes no trouble.

Congrats on your growth. The results are terrific. I don't know about typical, but those results are not uncommon. I know I got my best results from not going with a high dosage. It is common for a growth spurt to happen when going off the herbs for short periods.