My first recollection of wanting breasts was around age 12 when I (unsuccessfully) tried to create some using the toilet plunger. At about the same time (1952) Christine Jorgensen's sex reassignment surgery was being reported in the headlines and I cut out the articles and hid them in my dresser. I also tried out wearing the panties and bras from an attractive neighbor's apartment. This was all done with great excitement, but also secrecy and shame and fear of being caught.
I don't know that I had then any intense wish to become female, but then and since have always felt that I have greater empathy for women than for men. Over the 60 years since then of school and work and child rearing I have been able to direct my sexual energy toward and to find my sexual pleasure with women. Women in my life have said to me that I am more interested in and aware of their feelings and wishes than other men they have known. Lately I have come to think of myself as a “male lesbian” without being able to clearly state what that oxymoron might mean.
It is only in the last two years that I have undertaken to grow my breasts in a systematic fashion, first using Natureday products and Noogleberry pumping cylinders and for the last year and a half using PM as well as pumping. I have had success in growing breasts, with 5 inches of difference between my measured band and breast sizes. On some charts that's a D or DD, but looking at photos of real bodies I think I am closer to C—which to me is wonderful! (I'm not sure it's enough—the often-mentioned booby greed has a grip.)
I discovered this forum soon after I started growing and follow many of the threads. There is so much information and wisdom stated by the folks who write here and I thank you. The most recent is this fine comment by ClaraKay in response to notrenoir on some of the effects of age:
"You are only a couple years younger than I. What I've discovered, is that many of the barriers to transitioning a little or a lot, fall away at our age. Having graduated from parenthood, retired from the labor force, and having survived the forces that push people into divorce, it finally comes down to convincing oneself that it's now or never."
I don't know that I had then any intense wish to become female, but then and since have always felt that I have greater empathy for women than for men. Over the 60 years since then of school and work and child rearing I have been able to direct my sexual energy toward and to find my sexual pleasure with women. Women in my life have said to me that I am more interested in and aware of their feelings and wishes than other men they have known. Lately I have come to think of myself as a “male lesbian” without being able to clearly state what that oxymoron might mean.
It is only in the last two years that I have undertaken to grow my breasts in a systematic fashion, first using Natureday products and Noogleberry pumping cylinders and for the last year and a half using PM as well as pumping. I have had success in growing breasts, with 5 inches of difference between my measured band and breast sizes. On some charts that's a D or DD, but looking at photos of real bodies I think I am closer to C—which to me is wonderful! (I'm not sure it's enough—the often-mentioned booby greed has a grip.)
I discovered this forum soon after I started growing and follow many of the threads. There is so much information and wisdom stated by the folks who write here and I thank you. The most recent is this fine comment by ClaraKay in response to notrenoir on some of the effects of age:
"You are only a couple years younger than I. What I've discovered, is that many of the barriers to transitioning a little or a lot, fall away at our age. Having graduated from parenthood, retired from the labor force, and having survived the forces that push people into divorce, it finally comes down to convincing oneself that it's now or never."
Hmm,
I don't think there is a specific point in my life that marks when I wanted breasts. During my teen years, I thought a lot about how my life would be different as a girl and what it would be like to wake up as a girl the following morning. For the longest time I assumed the only way to grow breasts was get on the path to transition and get a doctor's prescription for hormones. With that assumption, I simply dropped the option of growing breasts.
I guess for me it would be easier to say that for some time I wanted to feminize/demasculinize my body's characteristics. I hated having/shaving facial hair. I detested any hair on my hands and chest. I was in deep conflict over my persuasive and unyielding libidio. Over time I realized that pursuing an androgynous appearance is the most practical path for me and one that likely best suits my gender identity. Once I had gained the financial resources, knowledge and opportunity to pursue NBE and laser my facial hair, it was just a matter of doing it.
I don't think there is a specific point in my life that marks when I wanted breasts. During my teen years, I thought a lot about how my life would be different as a girl and what it would be like to wake up as a girl the following morning. For the longest time I assumed the only way to grow breasts was get on the path to transition and get a doctor's prescription for hormones. With that assumption, I simply dropped the option of growing breasts.
I guess for me it would be easier to say that for some time I wanted to feminize/demasculinize my body's characteristics. I hated having/shaving facial hair. I detested any hair on my hands and chest. I was in deep conflict over my persuasive and unyielding libidio. Over time I realized that pursuing an androgynous appearance is the most practical path for me and one that likely best suits my gender identity. Once I had gained the financial resources, knowledge and opportunity to pursue NBE and laser my facial hair, it was just a matter of doing it.
(01-03-2014, 05:02 AM)flamesabers Wrote: Hmm,
For the longest time I assumed the only way to grow breasts was get on the path to transition and get a doctor's prescription for hormones. With that assumption, I simply dropped the option of growing breasts.
That was my perception of the situation, as well, although I was mostly ignorant of the transgender phenomenon. The desire to have breasts turned toward fantasies about growing and having breasts, for example, finding someone's birth control pills and taking them to affect the changes, or being the unwitting subject of a medical research project where I'm given estrogen which quickly transforms me into a woman to my shock and delight. These fantasies were typically enjoyed at bedtime just before falling asleep. I found them very calming after a stressful day at work.
Clara
I think the tales told by Flame and Clara are common, and shared by many., myself included. How do you feel now, with all the research provided by this board, learning that what we are doing is, essentially, though certainly slower, the same process as is to be expected through a doctor prescribed course of synthetic hormones?
What I am getting at is this ...was it not wanting or being financially able to, or even mentally being able to accept, the desire to go through the path of seeing a doctor, with the required visits to a counselor/therapist? Or was it the thought that somehow the herbal route was less of a definite admission to either the world or yourself, that you wanted to pursue some form of partial or full transition, and herbs seemed a baby step you could accept? Or was it that you felt there was a real way to simply grow breasts and not be interested in anything else? Or what?
What I am getting at is this ...was it not wanting or being financially able to, or even mentally being able to accept, the desire to go through the path of seeing a doctor, with the required visits to a counselor/therapist? Or was it the thought that somehow the herbal route was less of a definite admission to either the world or yourself, that you wanted to pursue some form of partial or full transition, and herbs seemed a baby step you could accept? Or was it that you felt there was a real way to simply grow breasts and not be interested in anything else? Or what?
(01-03-2014, 04:13 PM)Samantha Rogers Wrote: Or was it the thought that somehow the herbal route was less of a definite admission to either the world or yourself, that you wanted to pursue some form of partial or full transition, and herbs seemed a baby step you could accept?
Sammie, this part of your question struck a chord with me, and, I dare say, with the exception of a few, with most of us here being somewhere in the middle of the gender identity spectrum, I suspect it applies to most. We are not dysphoric to the extreme. Many of us have lived as men for most of our lives, although with regrets, mind you, but able to cope pretty well.
It makes sense that we would take a cautious approach to our transitioning; that is, taking it one step at a time. The very fact that many of us find ourselves doing something to relieve our transgender dissonance in our 50s and 60s is an indication of our not being sure what course of action is appropriate or practical, but wanting to explore the possibilities.
Having come this far, some of us will drop back and live out our lives as men, others will move closer and closer to embracing the female that is within us, others will discover that the full transsexual route is necessary for self-actualization. Unfortunately, some will not find an acceptable solution, and will continue to have to just cope with their gender conundrum, at least until conditions change.
I, personally, am in the "take it one step at a time" camp, and will end up wherever the trail leads.
Clara
(01-03-2014, 04:13 PM)Samantha Rogers Wrote: I think the tales told by Flame and Clara are common, and shared by many., myself included. How do you feel now, with all the research provided by this board, learning that what we are doing is, essentially, though certainly slower, the same process as is to be expected through a doctor prescribed course of synthetic hormones?
What I am getting at is this ...was it not wanting or being financially able to, or even mentally being able to accept, the desire to go through the path of seeing a doctor, with the required visits to a counselor/therapist? Or was it the thought that somehow the herbal route was less of a definite admission to either the world or yourself, that you wanted to pursue some form of partial or full transition, and herbs seemed a baby step you could accept? Or was it that you felt there was a real way to simply grow breasts and not be interested in anything else? Or what?
Samantha, (I like the name by the way, it reminds me of my favorite character on Stargate SG-1).
I think my motives are more practical than personal. Unless I just happen to find a doctor who is open-minded and experienced with transgender patients, I suspect the options I'll be given are either full transition or just counseling with no hormones or anything. It's a bit of a waste I think, both with my money and the doctor's time to have an appointment and be in the exact same boat I was prior to seeing him/her. Have you ever gone to a doctor and feel they don't know anything more (or even less) about your condition than you do and that any advice they've given to you is common sense or you could have figured it out on your own? This is how I feel about seeing a doctor about my gender identity. Other than prescribing hormones, I'm doubtful how much help they would be. Even if I did get hormones, I would have to follow the doctor's orders, unlike being able to self-experiment with NBE herbs like pm. Imagine if pm was a prescription med! I doubt very few doctors would have been okay with me taking unusually high doses (such as 4,000 mg per day) as I have before.
Counseling may be of some benefit, but I'm concerned my 'transgender mentality' will be regarded as a disorder like depression, anorexia and bipolar. People typically go to counseling because they have a problem. I don't have a problem with my androgynous gender identity, and perhaps unlike other atypical mental patterns, it's self-correcting and self-healing rather than self-destructive. As I have mentioned in prior posts, I have struggled with depression in the past. THAT's a problem in my mind that I really benefit seeing a therapist for, not having an atypical gender identity.
I haven't been keeping up with the latest DSM, but as far as I know it still divides transgender individuals into two camps: those who want to pursue a full transition and eventually SRS, and those who are much more satisfied with just dressing up and such with no serious interest in taking hormones. I don't think I belong to either group.
A question I have for you and anyone else reading this is would you go see a doctor if you wanted to eat a healthier diet and lose some weight by exercising? There's merit I think to be argued for either approach. If you're sickly and have a life-threatening health condition, consulting a doctor is probably a good idea before changing your diet and engaging in the stress of physical exercise. If though you're reasonably healthy, the amount of benefit to be gained by consulting a doctor first substantially declines I think.
Flame, dear, you don't strike me as one who suffers even an ounce of dysphoria concerning your gender identity. So, it makes sense that a gender therapist would be a waste of time and money for you.
If you were intending to transition to life as a woman full-time (I know you're not), you could do so, I understand, with the help of an endo and a signed 'informed consent' statement. At least that's possible in some states.
For the conflicted individual, however, a qualified gender therapist could make the difference between achieving peace of mind and stability in life and falling into the worst possible scenario.
On the other hand, I get the impression that many who do seek therapy, are practically pushed into HRT and transition. Do you get that impression?
What I like about the take-it-slow-herbal approach is that I have time to adjust to the idea of a partial or full transition. I don't feel I'm being pushed into anything. I can move forward, slow down, or back off as my sensibilities dictate without having to jump through medical professional hoops. That's capital, baby!
Hugs,
Clara
If you were intending to transition to life as a woman full-time (I know you're not), you could do so, I understand, with the help of an endo and a signed 'informed consent' statement. At least that's possible in some states.
For the conflicted individual, however, a qualified gender therapist could make the difference between achieving peace of mind and stability in life and falling into the worst possible scenario.
On the other hand, I get the impression that many who do seek therapy, are practically pushed into HRT and transition. Do you get that impression?
What I like about the take-it-slow-herbal approach is that I have time to adjust to the idea of a partial or full transition. I don't feel I'm being pushed into anything. I can move forward, slow down, or back off as my sensibilities dictate without having to jump through medical professional hoops. That's capital, baby!
Hugs,
Clara
Well, in response to both Flame and Clara, I can add this...the TG field seems to have come a long way recently in learning from past mistakes, and in adapting to the needs of individuals.
The endo I visited last week was at pains to state that, following the recommendation of a therapist or counselor, he would be fine with prescribing whatever level I felt comfortable with, according to strictly what I wanted, and then to alter that forward or backward at any point, again strictly according to my desire. The basic thrust was that it was all up to me, and that nothing (short of surgery) was irreversible.
Now, I grant that every doctor will be different. There are bound to be some whose personal views are less understanding. But there are also a lot of good ones, depending on where you live, of course. And the counselor I saw was only concerned with assisting me in whatever I wanted, not in pushing an agenda. I think the either/or thing may have been prevalent in even recent years, Flame, but I think it is quickly being replaced with a much better understanding of the complexities of this issue, and the wide variety of appropriate response. Again, I think it is mostly a matter of who you see. And, further, I think the necessity of therapy or counseling prior to obtaining a referral for HRT is simply a safety mechanism to eliminate or reduce the number of individuals who might pursue the course on a whim, or based in other mental problems that might have nothing to do with actual GID.
On the other hand, there are many TG individuals I have run across on other boards, who, for whatever reason, are still adamantly trying to assert the either/or thing themselves. I suspect they are, as are some heavily religious people, insecure in their own choice and wish to "convert" others in order to calm their own insecurity. But even then, there are also lots of others now pursuing a gender-fluid approach, using some HRT but with no intention of a full surgical transition. It is a big wide world and I think many people are beginning to realize one size never fits all.
As to your last question, Flame, I know some people who do consult a doctor prior to weight loss programs or new exercise regimes. And I myself see one annually just to get a check up. Sometimes we have a mentality that doctors are only there to be used when something is "wrong" but I don't think that is necessarily correct. They have skills and knowledge, and I think it can make sense to make use of their expertise. If we don't like what they have to offer, or advise, we are always free to decline to follow their suggestions, just as I do every time I light one of my little cigars. Tee hee. But in this case, since society makes doctors the gatekeepers to synthetic hormones, and since synthetic hormones are cheaper and supposedly more effective than the herbal programs we follow, it begs the question "why not?" Insurance or lack thereof becomes one effective answer to that question.
Note... I am not doing that myself (pursuing synthetic HRT)... nor do I expect to anytime soon, if ever. And I cannot envision ever, ever wanting a full transition with surgery. Rather, this entire conversation is all just for the fun of pursuing a hypothetical.
And, I know, Flame, that you have a mind that enjoys that kind of discourse, as well, don't you? I know I always enjoy your intelligent comments.
And I am glad you like my name, Flame, though I have never seen Stargate...is it worth watching?
Hugs
The endo I visited last week was at pains to state that, following the recommendation of a therapist or counselor, he would be fine with prescribing whatever level I felt comfortable with, according to strictly what I wanted, and then to alter that forward or backward at any point, again strictly according to my desire. The basic thrust was that it was all up to me, and that nothing (short of surgery) was irreversible.
Now, I grant that every doctor will be different. There are bound to be some whose personal views are less understanding. But there are also a lot of good ones, depending on where you live, of course. And the counselor I saw was only concerned with assisting me in whatever I wanted, not in pushing an agenda. I think the either/or thing may have been prevalent in even recent years, Flame, but I think it is quickly being replaced with a much better understanding of the complexities of this issue, and the wide variety of appropriate response. Again, I think it is mostly a matter of who you see. And, further, I think the necessity of therapy or counseling prior to obtaining a referral for HRT is simply a safety mechanism to eliminate or reduce the number of individuals who might pursue the course on a whim, or based in other mental problems that might have nothing to do with actual GID.
On the other hand, there are many TG individuals I have run across on other boards, who, for whatever reason, are still adamantly trying to assert the either/or thing themselves. I suspect they are, as are some heavily religious people, insecure in their own choice and wish to "convert" others in order to calm their own insecurity. But even then, there are also lots of others now pursuing a gender-fluid approach, using some HRT but with no intention of a full surgical transition. It is a big wide world and I think many people are beginning to realize one size never fits all.
As to your last question, Flame, I know some people who do consult a doctor prior to weight loss programs or new exercise regimes. And I myself see one annually just to get a check up. Sometimes we have a mentality that doctors are only there to be used when something is "wrong" but I don't think that is necessarily correct. They have skills and knowledge, and I think it can make sense to make use of their expertise. If we don't like what they have to offer, or advise, we are always free to decline to follow their suggestions, just as I do every time I light one of my little cigars. Tee hee. But in this case, since society makes doctors the gatekeepers to synthetic hormones, and since synthetic hormones are cheaper and supposedly more effective than the herbal programs we follow, it begs the question "why not?" Insurance or lack thereof becomes one effective answer to that question.
Note... I am not doing that myself (pursuing synthetic HRT)... nor do I expect to anytime soon, if ever. And I cannot envision ever, ever wanting a full transition with surgery. Rather, this entire conversation is all just for the fun of pursuing a hypothetical.
And, I know, Flame, that you have a mind that enjoys that kind of discourse, as well, don't you? I know I always enjoy your intelligent comments.
And I am glad you like my name, Flame, though I have never seen Stargate...is it worth watching?
Hugs
(01-03-2014, 09:11 PM)Samantha Rogers Wrote: ....and since synthetic hormones are cheaper and supposedly more effective than the herbal programs we follow....
I'm sure it's true that the time tested MTF HRT prescriptions are relatively inexpensive, but I was shocked when I learned the cost of Androgel, a testosterone gel that my doctor prescribed for me when my blood test showed a very low total T level -- would you believe $400 a month? That was the lowest cost of the alternative drugs available.
No, I'm not going to use it. I've worked hard to get my T level down to nearly bio-woman levels.
Could this explain why there are fewer FTMs than MTFs out there?
Clara
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