Most bio males on this board thinks that because they are male, that automatically means they have to triple or quad the amount in order to match up with our sister's.

It's fairly obvious that genetic males would need more PM than a genetic female, since genetic men have far less E than genetic women to begin with. For a male to experience real feminization he would have to use a lot more PM to simulate the amount of estrogen naturally present in a female. A genetic female looking for NBE would only need to supplement her natural supply of E.

THat being said, it's clear there is a point of diminishing returns, and possibly a point where too much PM actually inhibits the desired effect. In my case, too much PM (over 3000 mg/day) actually increases my GD.

Misty

Excellent point ia,

I suppose some of the reasoning behind large doses stems from the theory of overcoming testosterone (which I bought into). The problem with that is just because males have a larger liver doesn't make it any less susceptible to damaging it. But, if your able to fork over the 6 figures required for a liver transplant by all means knock yourself out, only there's a huge waiting list for the people who actually need one.

Now the information about taking less gets more isn't new, in fact it's documented quite well. Here's something that isn't well documented, an over expression of estrogen will send the enzyme armomatase (which converts testosterone to estrogen) back into testosterone.

Higher dose of estrogen slows down aromatase in MTF's, granted PM is an estrogenic mimic, it's at least 25% of E2 as been reported, which doesn't mean I need to take 75% more. I've learned the hard way on stressing out my body on those higher doses I thought would work. That fact I've grow more with less (and documented it) says the science is correct. But that's just my opinion, it's also my opinion if you report having problems with taking large doses of PM why do we still endorse it.
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Even though I'm not interested in transitioning I think we need to use the same research as it still effects the very basics of GM's wanting to grow breasts.

http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/care_program_and_services/hospital_services/Documents/hormones-MTF.pdf

Thanks JJ, I like reading your posts too.

Excellent point ia,

I suppose some of the reasoning behind large doses stems from the theory of overcoming testosterone (which I bought into). The problem with that is just because males have a larger liver doesn't make it any less susceptible to damaging it. But, if your able to fork over the 6 figures required for a liver transplant by all means knock yourself out, only there's a huge waiting list for the people who actually need one.

Now the information about taking less gets more isn't new, in fact it's documented quite well. Here's something that isn't well documented, an over expression of estrogen will send the enzyme armomatase (which converts testosterone to estrogen) back into testosterone.

Higher dose of estrogen slows down aromatase in MTF's, granted PM is an estrogenic mimic, it's at least 25% of E2 as been reported, which doesn't mean I need to take 75% more. I've learned the hard way on stressing out my body on those higher doses I thought would work. That fact I've grow more with less (and documented it) says the science is correct. But that's just my opinion, it's also my opinion if you report having problems with taking large doses of PM why do we still endorse it.
-----------------------------
Even though I'm not interested in transitioning I think we need to use the same research as it still effects the very basics of GM's wanting to grow breasts.

http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/care_program_and_services/hospital_services/Documents/hormones-MTF.pdf

Thanks JJ, I like reading your posts too.

Hi Lotus its my understanding that its impossible to convert E to T it just doesnt work that way... The goal with MtF HRT is to reduce T to female levels so the E can work unopposed... Taking a high dosage of E will not result in more T, it will result in less... I can confirm that with firsthand experience and lab work to back it up... Now its debatable that a high level of E is needed or desirable... Without a doubt though T is poison to someone in transition though... Im on a 5ar (DHT) blocker (Dutasteride) and Spiro (blocks AR's and increases aromataze, and blocks conversion of P to T) along with P... P is the most muddy as far as info I can find, there just isnt much out there thats conclusive at all... While P can be converted to T it just doesnt happen for me, Im not not sure it can in my case and again its impossible for E to be metabolized to T...

Certainly amazing feminization is possible on low dose HRT for some people and Im usually quite jealous of them

BUT NBE isnt quite "syn HRT" and with those poison factorys attached and functional yes I can see the argument that "less is more".... Im not sure how it works but they will "fight back" as long as the body is wired to be male... I'll admit NBE is a mystery to me but it certainly can and does amazing things as you and others here have shown

The fact that PM got my tits started while my T measured in the lower normal range always boggled my mind... There must be some kind of a androgen receptor blocking mechanism at work there along with an aromataze and estrogenic effect... Its amazing stuff, I can still feel the effect of PM even on high dose HRT

Eva, (I've got nothing but love for you).

Inserted in most mtf primers is the quote "taking more hormones doesn't get more results, it actually slows transitioning down". I get it, who wants to believe it's gonna take 2-5 years of work to appear feminine (insert NBE for GM breast growth).

The fact that high dose estradiol actually slows down aromatase and increases testosterone is not well understood, although it's not been proven yet that it converts it back to T, that part I don't doubt will be proven soon lol (sorry for the confusion). He'll just the other day I found a DHT link to estrogen receptors in genetic males, (once thought impossible) so who knows.

I also get why docs believe in reducing T levels to natal females levels. Imo it just doesn't make sense, estrogen comes from testosterone, in fact there is multiple pathways for natal males to enhance E by aromatase.

I also won't except what science says about males (even mtf) can't grow a set boobs past a B-cup, such a contradiction lol. So imo T is not poison, it's just a source to get to where I'm going, just like E is. But what do I know, I still don't know shit!.

Hey I love ya too Sis NBE is even less understood and much older than HRT which is a relatively new development...

Yes its my understanding that even in women T is the source of their E as well as conversion of P to E through enzymes and all that voodoo... Something there in the chromosomes and genes says thats the way it needs to be... The uterine system and all that needs E and P and thats just how it works....

Well I dont have all that... My system in its natural state says it needs T and lots of it It would be great if there was a way to turn my own T into enough E... Someday they may figure out how to do it all just by pure modification of the male endocrine system... It makes sense and thats a logical way to go about this... Thing is feminizing males just isnt a big priority for doctors and big pharma... Doctors aren't trained in cross sex HRT... There is much disagreement among them for sure...

They sure cant and will never truly know what its like to feminize much less "have a sex change"

E in a high enough dosage alone can be enough to completely shut down T not increase it Blocking androgen receptors and DHT is just a logical way to mimic the time honored and proven method of male feminization, castration... There is no doubt that effective HRT, minimizing T and adding E works and more often than not, quite well

My experience with this so far is that with oral E there may be something to "less is more"... The metabolism there isnt quite natural and it was never meant to be used in high dosage for feminization... Patches and gel are better but just too expensive and hard to get an effective dosage with... You know I like IM injections

All of it is "off label" uses for products designed to ease menopause symptoms in women... They take one pill a day or wear a patch and eventually they go off it or take very low dosage... The thing is they are already feminized and they arent attempting to change their systems to run on a different hormone...

I think the whole "less is more" speil from doctors is partly due to the fact that it IS true for women who are again already quite feminized... I also think a lot of it is doctors who while sympathetic dont even really know whats going on.... "Less is more" is also less liability, a way to cover their asses but also just a genuine lack of knowledge...

All I can tell you is I've always felt and done better on higher dosage of NBE and now HRT... More E for me dont mean more T and I will have a lab test next week to confirm that... I dont need that though to know there is no T and high E

I also get why docs believe in reducing T levels to natal females levels. Imo it just doesn't make sense, estrogen comes from testosterone,

Yes E does come from T and natal woman have the boilogy to do the conversion much more effectively than natal males. In natal males, the relevant tissues atrophy as part of their development.

In transwomen the T has to be reduced to female levels because the two sex hormones are largely anatagonstic. Since we cannot reduce our own T (by converting it en masse to E) then ALL sex hormone production is turned off and female hormones supplied from an external source.

For example, I receive an 3 monthly injection of Triptorelin to shut down all gondal hormone production. This means that the only source of T in my body is the adrenal glands, just like natal women. It chemically castrates me and the effects of very low T become apparent very quickly, but it allows allows my estrogen to work unopposed. After my GRS is done I can stop the Triptorelin and I will only have adrenal T.

It may also be worth point out that even natal women typically have twice as much T in their bodies as E. Natal men typically have 400 times as much T as E. My hormones are in the female range. On my last blood test I had 550pmol/L of E and 1.6 nmol/L of T, but 1000 pmol = 1 nmol so my E was 0.55 nmol/L or 1/3rd of my T level. Estrogen is a powerful hormone so small levels of it are very effective.

For reference, my T level is 1.6, but normal male levels go from 7 to 30. Normal E for males is around 50 pmol/L = 0.05nmol/L

I also won't except what science says about males (even mtf) can't grow a set boobs past a B-cup, such a contradiction lol. So imo T is not poison, it's just a source to get to where I'm going, just like E is. But what do I know, I still don't know shit!.

Plenty of transwomen are known to grow C, D, E and bigger cups, but the majority usually get an A or B

I've read that 50-60% of transsexual women seek breast augmentation (BA). The number may be understated due to affordability issues.

Many transwomen that I've met are surprised (and a bit envious) that I have achieved as much breast growth as I have, and that I don't plan to do BA surgery. When I tell them that I achieved most of my breast growth on PM, they are even more surprised. I'm also surprised that moving to synthetic estrogen hasn't been more effective in stimulating further breast growth. It makes me wonder if high levels of estradiol are counter productive for breast growth.

Clara

I've been reading this thread with quite some interest. I am now considering reducing my PM intake on learning this new information.

Lotus, you said your PM intake is 1000mg equivalent in extract. I am also taking extract, how many drops would this equate to?

B.Rose

That's an interesting approach, and thanks for sharing, how long have you been doing it?, have you had any results so far? or pics to share?.

How does your endo approach target tissues?, is oral E or transdermals prescribed?. I found some studies that Estradiol (only) was administered without androgens, which they showed was effective in results compared to that of the control group that had AA's administrated.

The labs you shared are in the free state, which for our lay people, that's the hormones that are active and able to interact with receptors. SHBG is a carrier protein, which will be about 64%(roughly), albumin represents about 33%(again roughly), and it has the potential to become active into the free state. Free T is at about 2-5% this is the active kind and available to interact with target tissue and activate cell growth.

On the GnRh agonists approach, did you get an additional surge of T (flare up?). The fda has a warning posted about Triptorelin although its also administrated for GID too, other conditions too (although the costs appear very high). Insurance companies regard this as experimental, which most likely adds to the cost.

Adrenal androgens can be converted through the androstenedione pathway, DHEA and DHEAS , sort of a back door imo (although there is such a thing).

I do have a less than $10.00 alternative (maybe) for GnRH, any guesses?. The correct answer gets you 5 free skips, (wait, that's internet music lol).
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Josephine

3-6 drops = 120-240 mg (1 drop is 40 mg)
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=19659&page=6

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Clara, that's not good odds, I wonder what the NBE stats would be. So that means "roughly" up to 60% don't make it to a C-cup?, assuming having B-cups wouldnt be adequate, I dunno.

At the very least, I think we need a combo of an oral and sublingual approach, transdermal would work too. Sublingual/transdermal for targets tissues, (escaping the first pass metabolism for the most part), low dose E for liver metabolism. Add fatty acids for 5 AR's and aromatase, and the standard AA of choice, PC in addition, massage, light aerobics, and mini detox 1x per month. Of course proper nutrition, fresh fruits, greens, healthy nuts (fatty acids again) PUFA's-polyunsaturated fatty acids like walnuts, coconut-oil etc, vitamin C helps E metabolize.

Just my opinion.