Hi Clara,

....
I will say that I was fortunate to avoid the many pitfalls that late transitioners typically encounter. I have a loving and supportive spouse and the resources without which it's very difficult to carry out an MTF transition successfully.

My wife is the kind who would be mortified if any of her extended family were to find out. We are of that generation, as you know.

No kids then?

Exchanging one form of misery for another even more onerous is not a good tradeoff. I appreciate your stand in that regard.

Precisely. Doomed, doomed, I tell you!

Sure I want to be a good looking woman, what woman doesn't? But, beauty is fleeting, and I see no problem with growing old as a woman any more than growing old as a man except that as a woman, I will not carry the burden of pretending to be someone I'm not.

I wouldn't have minded growing old _from_ a young female basis, but at this stage, I would feel rather like the Countess of Monte Christo, having spent the best years of my life locked up in a male prison.

I'm one of nature's malcontents!

It all comes down to where you fall on the gender identity spectrum. I've always felt that being more or less in the center was the most troublesome.

...

Some people say the glass is half full, some say it's half empty. I wanted a cheeseburger.


Thanks for taking the time Clara. I appreciate the thoughts!

B.

Hi Kari,

"testosterone poisoning"

I like that! I'll be adding that phrase to my vocabulary for sure.

It's very real! A similar phrase, Testosterone Toxicity, is used by Anne Vitale in this seminal paper:
http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

I have come to the conclusion that in just the right amounts, testosterone is responsible for all the great things of civilisation, but more frequently accounts for the worst:violence, sadism, sex crimes, soul-destroying paraphilia, road rage etc.

I can say with confidence that by suppressing mine, PM has made me a better person.

B.

Bryony, I have three children 40, 37 and 30. They all support me, although my one daughter is sad to lose her dad, as the male figure she has come to love. I don't know how to account for it, but I have not experienced the kind of closed-minded, visceral rejection from family and friends that so many others have reported. There are a few exceptions, but too few to dwell on the ugly side of people's prejudice.

Kari, I never liked my male appearance. As I've aged that dislike has only intensified. Now, as a woman, I like my reflection in the mirror. In many respects, I will not follow the same aging path as natal women experience. Estrogen has been a fountain of youth for me both physically and mentally. I will be an 80 year old woman someday with perky breasts.

Clara

I, too, thought that I had the autogynephilia disorder that you speak of.

I don't believe it's referred to specifically as a disorder, at least, not in the places I've read about it. It's just a thing; a term coined to represent a certain concept. It's essentially a form of narcissism -- a personality trait that can be simultaneously useful and obnoxious. But hardly a 'disorder'.

It doesn't really matter, though, whether or not we think we are autogynephiles. It's just one more way of describing the same thing (gender otherness), so acceptance or denial is really only a matter of semantics.

Myself, I find the shoe (the definition of autogynephilia) fits, if a bit awkwardly, but as I've mentioned previously, I don't care to view the matter through the lens of psychiatry as though it were a disease.

Gender-othered people do exist as a biological reality, but I'm not confident in all the science yet. While it's hardly scientific, I find it difficult to think of a better descriptor than "two-spirit" and its embodied philosophy.

the rising level of estradiol in my body unleashed a dormant female gender identity which was unrelenting in its need to be acknowledged and nurtured.

Uhh....

I have a loving and supportive spouse and the resources without which it's very difficult to carry out an MTF transition successfully.

"Resources" meaning enough cash to buy a house, by the sound of it. If that's disposable money in your household, I'd be a loving and supportive spouse, too.

as a woman, I will not carry the burden of pretending to be someone I'm not.

We all tell ourselves little fibs, just to get through life, every day. "My job doesn't suck that bad." "My kids are little angels." "I'm not going to let so-and-so bother me today." Etc.

That's one kind of whopper, though, that I could never make myself believe! No matter how many times I might tell myself "I is a womaaannnn!" it would never jibe with my sense of objective reality... and I'd only hate myself for lying to myself.

Thus...

I've always felt that being more or less in the center was the most troublesome.

...thus, it is my view that (philosophically) somewhere in the middle is about as good as it gets. That's not a value judgment, nor a reference to appearance, passability, or any other issue; it's merely a nod to the reality of biology.

Myself, I find the shoe (the definition of autogynephilia) fits, if a bit awkwardly, but as I've mentioned previously, I don't care to view the matter through the lens of psychiatry as though it were a disease.

Do you mean a disease, as in something acquired which impairs or damages the ability of an organism to function? Like how ISIS or ISIL or the acronym of the month for murder and control cults impairs the ability of their society to function, for example? If so, then it is a disease if you blame your desires on the constant overt and subliminal sexual objectification of women which has been going on in much of the world for decades now. On the other hand, if you don't believe outside influences caused any of your desires, then it certainly wouldn't be a disease by that definition but is instead a trait or attribute you simply possess.
As a separate comment, I think it is healthy and awesome that you have found a way to accept and take joy in your own unique self. I wish that were more common.

Gender-othered people do exist as a biological reality, but I'm not confident in all the science yet. While it's hardly scientific, I find it difficult to think of a better descriptor than "two-spirit" and its embodied philosophy.

I never liked that two-spirit term much. It only reinforces the gender binary. It feels like it confirms there are two genders and only people who aren't integrated within their own minds can have both male and female traits. Thus it becomes yet another way of describing it as a problem to be overcome, instead of something to be acknowledged as simple diversity. I mean diversity within the population, not within an individual psyche. The term two-spirit suggests schizophrenia to me. If you really take the concept of gender as a societal construct, then you can recognize that it's definition is also made up by those with a self-interest in classifying members of the society. History tells us that those who classify others are doing it for their own purposes.

These gender roles and gender-related expression expectations are really and truly only a product of the times and circumstances in which we live. I recognize there are differences between people which do correlate to some extent with the differences in their bodies (the entire body, not just its visible parts), but the classification of those differences as being defined by the bodily differences alone is just small minded.

Find what makes you happy and pursue it.

Yes gender is largely a social construct but humans are social beings
The opposite of social is antisocial and thats generally not a good thing...
Id rather not pretend to enjoy being male another minute and I find that when Im just really me Im much happier living as a woman... The more I can integrate into the world of women the better I feel and the happier I am...

I used to worry about all that Autogyniphilia BS but really its not productive to put a label on yourself like that... Even if its a valid thing who cares??? Theres much worse things in the world you can be... If its who you are and your happy it doesn't matter whatever they wanna call you... Its irrelevant as long as your happy and true to yourself .)

"Real woman" or just another "delusional tranny" who cares as long as you feel good about yourself and your happy??? I find the less I try to figure this shit out and the more Im just me, the happier I am

Anyone who wants to challenge my identity or try to label me as this or that can kiss my pretty smooth white ass

Yes gender is largely a social construct but humans are social beings
The opposite of social is antisocial and thats generally not a good thing...
Id rather not pretend to enjoy being male another minute and I find that when Im just really me Im much happier living as a woman... The more I can integrate into the world of women the better I feel and the happier I am...

I used to worry about all that Autogyniphilia BS but really its not productive to put a label on yourself like that... Even if its a valid thing who cares??? Theres much worse things in the world you can be... If its who you are and your happy it doesn't matter whatever they wanna call you... Its irrelevant as long as your happy and true to yourself .)

"Real woman" or just another "delusional tranny" who cares as long as you feel good about yourself and your happy??? I find the less I try to figure this shit out and the more Im just me, the happier I am

Anyone who wants to challenge my identity or try to label me as this or that can kiss my pretty smooth white ass

Yeah, I don't really get the need to classify things which are inherently resistant to classification. Square pegs into round holes, if you ask me. Which could be fun, depending on one's personality. (Im a closet legophilliac, technically)

Then again, I never cared for taxonomy.

People define their own identities, so debate over such matters seems futile to me.

As the one who mentioned the term in the thread, I was simply explaining that it handily defines where I am on the spectrum - that is to say, my condition is such that I could not be happy living as an old woman, unless I had got there from being a pretty one - and that ship has sailed.

As you say, it is just a label but so are the labels "men" and "women", and if one of those feels right to you and the other feels wrong then labels do clearly matter to you as well. Neither male nor female fits me unless it is explained in such a way that is/was only supplied by the term autogynephile:

"a man's paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman."

The most important benefit of PM to me was to suppress the libido that was entirely bound up in this phrase. It was a source of pain and guilt for me, and it described my disorder precisely - and anyone who doesn't think that suffering a paraphilia is a disorder does not understand the meaning of the word.

Herewith: Wiki: "Psychological or Mental disorder, a psychological pattern associated with distress or disability that occurs in an individual and is not a part of normal development or culture."

I suffered anxiety and depression for over 20 years due to autogynephilia. Don't tell me it doesn't exist and/or it is not a disorder. Might not be to you folks, but it certainly was to me.

B.

You have all given me a lot to think about! But one at a time....

If so, then it is a disease if you blame your desires on the constant overt and subliminal sexual objectification of women which has been going on in much of the world for decades now. On the other hand, if you don't believe outside influences caused any of your desires, then it certainly wouldn't be a disease by that definition but is instead a trait or attribute you simply possess.

This, I think, goes right to the heart of the old "nature versus nurture" argument.

I come down firmly on the side of... both.

The reality is, I could not credit one or the other, alone, with how or why I am the way I am. It's absolutely foolish to pretend that we, as adults, can look back at our childhoods and see one or the other. Things that happen to us at 4 years of age can affect -- profoundly -- who we are as adults; also, things in our DNA from conception can do the same. I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

Here's why I can say this: I grew boobs at puberty. That's genetic -- nature. I also used to obsess over the dresses the girls in church would wear. I can't see a genetic component to that. But both are part and parcel of who I am.

As a separate comment, I think it is healthy and awesome that you have found a way to accept and take joy in your own unique self. I wish that were more common.

Me too.

Self-acceptance is probably the greatest struggle we know -- in the First World, anyway! Anywhere where we all have roofs and food and clothing... mental problems become our worst foes. So it's all "First World Problems".

I truly wish I could express to everyone what joy there is in finding your life's calling. My hope is that everyone will find it.

I never liked that two-spirit term much. It only reinforces the gender binary. It feels like it confirms there are two genders and only people who aren't integrated within their own minds can have both male and female traits.

This is the part that made me think all day before I replied. You really set me back on my heels here.

To me, the term embodies this: two spirits -- masculine and feminine -- in one body. An integrated whole of more than one. A whole that is more than the sum of its parts. One person, who understands what it means to be male, and female, at the same time. A balanced individual; one who can counsel couples because he or she or ze or whatever can see things through the eyes of anyone and everyone.

I don't see it as reinforcing a binary. Binary, of course, meaning two. Two meaning male and female, so two-spirit meaning both... automatically meaning a third. Most old cultures make room in their mythos for a third. So, the concept of a two-spirit, to me, immediately dispels the possibility of a binary culture!

I do not consider myself schizophrenic in the least. I am an integrated person of indefinite gender....

If you really take the concept of gender as a societal construct, then you can recognize that it's definition is also made up by those with a self-interest in classifying members of the society.

Ah, the social construct argument.

I used to deal with this one, in the context of race -- race is a social construct, don't ya know!

I just can't go that far deconstructionist. Some things are just real. Call it a sense of... Randian objectivism?

Unless... if we are really that much guided by the imagination? Then perhaps we are all just a part of the dream of Buddha, just entering the realm of Kali Yuga, waiting for the Originator to awake....

"Real woman" or just another "delusional tranny" who cares as long as you feel good about yourself and your happy??? I find the less I try to figure this shit out and the more Im just me, the happier I am

Yes!!!

That's just it.

I think (or fear) we are now starting to see the results of what started about 20 years ago, when psychology classes started to be a part of most high school curricula.

Suddenly, it seems, everyone under 30 is capable of introspection and self-analysis!

Anyway, for myself, I have to come down on the side of "delusional tranny" except with maybe less delusion. I know what I am.

Here's the thing. I do believe any tranny can be a lady. "Lady", to me, is a set of attitudes and views that makes you a certain kind of person. Not every woman is a lady, you know? So I do believe the occasional man can be a lady. Not every woman is a lady, and not every lady is a woman. Make sense?

I think we, as unconventional ladies, have a special responsibility to out-genteel conventional ladies. Just as if we were to meet a trans-man, we would expect him to demonstrate a level of worthy masculinity; i.e. be able to change the oil or replace brake pads, on any vehicle of our choosing.

I do recommend, however... you learn the difference between "your" and "you're".