I can't post too much here, as she is very aware of this site. Don't know if she checks my profile for updates or not.. Anyway, I'll give as much as I can about everything.
I've written so many follow-ups to this, yet each time I have deleted it before submitting. I haven't felt like life has been stable once since the original post. My wife and I split for a few days, we started seeing a counselor and are back living in the same house. I stopped taking all herbs since a few days after the original post, and only started taking SP today to keep the horniness from coming back.
We haven't mentioned the GD stuff to the counselor yet. After the initial post here, and a lot of your responses, I realized that this (as of right now) is not a major contributor to our messed up, dysfunctional marriage. We have so many underlying issues to fix and adapt to.
In the last week, I met with two of my best friends and talked to them about how I feel. I told them about the supplements, the body changes, both physical and mental. I told them about dressing up as well. I literally spilled the beans about it all. I wanted to see how they'd react, but more importantly how I'd react. And, I feel great. I explained that I have been alpha this whole time when in reality, I don't feel like I am. I told them that I believe I've been closing myself from the outside world because I've been so uncomfortable with how I've felt for so long. I said that I desire to have the body of a woman. And the funny thing is.. Neither of them laughed or said "dude, come on..." They both were really cool about it.
One of my buddies said in reference to me working towards a feminine body and requesting that he doesn't give me a hard time about not changing in front of him while backpacking, "yeah man, you think it's weird that you're going to have a chicks body, but I'd rather see that than a hairy gorilla. It's fine dude, you don't have to be ashamed to be yourself!" - Probably one of the coolest guys I know. But he has a point. We all have different body types, and I need to learn to allow myself to be comfortable in my skin, no matter what that looks like. The people that love me do so for the person I am. A kick ass friend, a kick ass dad and a kick ass husband (still working on even being one at this point..).
I am extremely nervous to talk to the counselor about all of this, and am wanting to continue the supplements until I can see what he thinks about me taking them. I guess I should have been more nervous about talking to my closest friends, but I feel completely relieved and like a GIANT boulder has been lifted and I can now start enjoying my friendships without feeling the baggage dragging me down.
- I know all of this is all over the place, completely disorganized thoughts. But I'm okay with that and I'm going to press "submit" now! Goodnight!
I've written so many follow-ups to this, yet each time I have deleted it before submitting. I haven't felt like life has been stable once since the original post. My wife and I split for a few days, we started seeing a counselor and are back living in the same house. I stopped taking all herbs since a few days after the original post, and only started taking SP today to keep the horniness from coming back.
We haven't mentioned the GD stuff to the counselor yet. After the initial post here, and a lot of your responses, I realized that this (as of right now) is not a major contributor to our messed up, dysfunctional marriage. We have so many underlying issues to fix and adapt to.
In the last week, I met with two of my best friends and talked to them about how I feel. I told them about the supplements, the body changes, both physical and mental. I told them about dressing up as well. I literally spilled the beans about it all. I wanted to see how they'd react, but more importantly how I'd react. And, I feel great. I explained that I have been alpha this whole time when in reality, I don't feel like I am. I told them that I believe I've been closing myself from the outside world because I've been so uncomfortable with how I've felt for so long. I said that I desire to have the body of a woman. And the funny thing is.. Neither of them laughed or said "dude, come on..." They both were really cool about it.
One of my buddies said in reference to me working towards a feminine body and requesting that he doesn't give me a hard time about not changing in front of him while backpacking, "yeah man, you think it's weird that you're going to have a chicks body, but I'd rather see that than a hairy gorilla. It's fine dude, you don't have to be ashamed to be yourself!" - Probably one of the coolest guys I know. But he has a point. We all have different body types, and I need to learn to allow myself to be comfortable in my skin, no matter what that looks like. The people that love me do so for the person I am. A kick ass friend, a kick ass dad and a kick ass husband (still working on even being one at this point..).
I am extremely nervous to talk to the counselor about all of this, and am wanting to continue the supplements until I can see what he thinks about me taking them. I guess I should have been more nervous about talking to my closest friends, but I feel completely relieved and like a GIANT boulder has been lifted and I can now start enjoying my friendships without feeling the baggage dragging me down.
- I know all of this is all over the place, completely disorganized thoughts. But I'm okay with that and I'm going to press "submit" now! Goodnight!
I haven't heard much about the child - or is it children? Reference to "first child" implies more. What about them? Children are more likely to grow up dysfunctional with separated parents.
You two are, like it or not, related by virtue of creating children. What you have to decide is, what is most important? She seems to be disappointed you didn't meet her expectations, and vice versa. What about your respective roles as father and mother? How much do you (both of you) love your children? Would you put yourselves in harm's way to protect them?
Is mental damage better or worse than physical damage? If you would put yourselves in harm's way to protect them, would come to an arrangement whereby you could live as a happy family, perhaps in a non-sexual way, for their benefit?
To be honest, I think her chances of finding another partner with kids in tow are slim, and yours, with the gender dysphoria, sorry to say are pretty much non-existent.
Is it not possible to put the sex / self-realisation / self-actualisation / gratification to one side and concentrate on a happy family life with your kids?
Just asking.
B.
You two are, like it or not, related by virtue of creating children. What you have to decide is, what is most important? She seems to be disappointed you didn't meet her expectations, and vice versa. What about your respective roles as father and mother? How much do you (both of you) love your children? Would you put yourselves in harm's way to protect them?
Is mental damage better or worse than physical damage? If you would put yourselves in harm's way to protect them, would come to an arrangement whereby you could live as a happy family, perhaps in a non-sexual way, for their benefit?
To be honest, I think her chances of finding another partner with kids in tow are slim, and yours, with the gender dysphoria, sorry to say are pretty much non-existent.
Is it not possible to put the sex / self-realisation / self-actualisation / gratification to one side and concentrate on a happy family life with your kids?
Just asking.
B.
(26-05-2015, 11:50 PM)bryony Wrote: I haven't heard much about the child - or is it children? Reference to "first child" implies more. What about them? Children are more likely to grow up dysfunctional with separated parents.
We have 3 kids. And for the most part, couldn't agree with you more. However, there are times when the parents relationship was poison to their children's childhood.
(26-05-2015, 11:50 PM)bryony Wrote: You two are, like it or not, related by virtue of creating children. What you have to decide is, what is most important? She seems to be disappointed you didn't meet her expectations, and vice versa. What about your respective roles as father and mother? How much do you (both of you) love your children? Would you put yourselves in harm's way to protect them?
Again, you are right. The kids are the main reason why I've put so much effort into this. Honestly, I love her a lot, but would have probably bailed long ago if it wasn't for the kids. We both love them a ton. From the moment I get home @ around 7-7:30pm we typically do something together. Eat dinner, watch a tv show or play a game, then I read to them before turning the lights out. Yesterday, we took them out to lunch, and then went bowling. I personally live for my kids. I'd die right now if it meant saving any of their lives. They are my world.
(26-05-2015, 11:50 PM)bryony Wrote: Is mental damage better or worse than physical damage? If you would put yourselves in harm's way to protect them, would come to an arrangement whereby you could live as a happy family, perhaps in a non-sexual way, for their benefit?
I'm not certain. I'm only 32 years old, and she's hot.
(26-05-2015, 11:50 PM)bryony Wrote: To be honest, I think her chances of finding another partner with kids in tow are slim, and yours, with the gender dysphoria, sorry to say are pretty much non-existent.
Is it not possible to put the sex / self-realisation / self-actualisation / gratification to one side and concentrate on a happy family life with your kids?
Just asking.
B.
Right now man, it's not really in my court. I have done absolutely everything I can up to this point to try and make it work. I am still going to keep trying. There's a lot of things I can't discuss here yet, but I promise I will in the next week or two. I do not mind the questions, I just leave a lot out because this is a breast enhancement forum after all.. But, if anyone has questions, I have no problem answering.
On a totally different note. I woke up this morning, went to work and wrote out a HUGE email to my counselor explaining the dysphoria, the issues I have with my appearance, the way my wife (or spouse) has explained her views to me. A new boldness has come over me, and I no longer feel embarrassed by any of it. I think that I feel that as of right now, I don't understand myself, and for that, I cannot fault myself. I am working on being happy with who I am, whoever that is. I am trying to move forward with my life & myself. I don't feel like waiting anymore for her to "decide to be with me". I am not saying I threw in the towel.. I am just saying that I need to be happy either way, and hopefully she stays with me, but at this point, I can't do anything about that.
Thanks for letting me vent here, and for some really amazing advice. I have taken a lot of it to heart.
These all sound like the opening steps on a journey - a journey which has been made by several of us here although everyone's starting point and direction is probably slightly different.
Several of us came to this site (Thank God it is here) looking for something and thanks to the help and advice of others have managed to get a handle on ourselves and where we fit into our own unique worlds; from that we have gained new insights into ourselves and the direction we need to follow.
It takes considerable time for the whole picture to percolate into ones conciousness and the final outcome might be very different from the one which you initially envisaged.
I would counsel giving the whole thing time and a lot of consideration.
That said, I wish you well in finding your best outcome - there are many of us who have had to to resolve similar issues. In time, much of this will just fall into place and you will look back at these stages as stepping stones to wherever.
Miranda
Several of us came to this site (Thank God it is here) looking for something and thanks to the help and advice of others have managed to get a handle on ourselves and where we fit into our own unique worlds; from that we have gained new insights into ourselves and the direction we need to follow.
It takes considerable time for the whole picture to percolate into ones conciousness and the final outcome might be very different from the one which you initially envisaged.
I would counsel giving the whole thing time and a lot of consideration.
That said, I wish you well in finding your best outcome - there are many of us who have had to to resolve similar issues. In time, much of this will just fall into place and you will look back at these stages as stepping stones to wherever.
Miranda
I think the only thing I can add is that it could be that you have in fact become less desirable to her. You said that you were an Alpha male. Well, although I can't relate to it, some women actually _do_ like men to be Alpha males. The phytoestrogens will definitely affect the way you smell - and pheremones do play an important part in male/female attraction.
There is no doubt that a "standard" woman will find the concept of a man wanting to feminise as repulsive as a "standard" man would find the idea of a beautiful woman wanting to masculinise.
Would you be really, really happy if the solution to your problems was for her to take testosterone, no longer be "hot", but to lose half of her hair, grow a beard, have her voice break, get a mastectomy, and have an artificial penis constructed? (Which, by the way, she would like to try out on you).
It's that last example which I use on a personal basis to sustain me when I get agonise about the unfairness of life.
Your big problem, however, is the gender dysphoria. I have found that it is possible for me to find a dosage of PM that suppresses my desire to cross-dress or otherwise to try to present as female. The disadvantage is that it also suppresses the libido and erections. For men young enough to want penetrative sex on a regular basis, this means regular sessions of cold turkey - going a week or so without the PM, but knowing that later on the depression will go.
The other disadvantage is that the dose is large enough to cause breast growth.
You might want to consider making a bargain with your wife to the extent that you would find the dosage that got rid of the dysphoria, but it would cause gynecomastia - which many men get nowadays anyway thanks to pollution, unethical food production and drug abuse - but in return you would stop asking for permission to otherwise feminise (which you would not need to do anyway if you get the dose right). There is always the option of breast reduction - a very common operation for men.
That's the arrangement that I have with my wife and it works well.
B.
There is no doubt that a "standard" woman will find the concept of a man wanting to feminise as repulsive as a "standard" man would find the idea of a beautiful woman wanting to masculinise.
Would you be really, really happy if the solution to your problems was for her to take testosterone, no longer be "hot", but to lose half of her hair, grow a beard, have her voice break, get a mastectomy, and have an artificial penis constructed? (Which, by the way, she would like to try out on you).
It's that last example which I use on a personal basis to sustain me when I get agonise about the unfairness of life.
Your big problem, however, is the gender dysphoria. I have found that it is possible for me to find a dosage of PM that suppresses my desire to cross-dress or otherwise to try to present as female. The disadvantage is that it also suppresses the libido and erections. For men young enough to want penetrative sex on a regular basis, this means regular sessions of cold turkey - going a week or so without the PM, but knowing that later on the depression will go.
The other disadvantage is that the dose is large enough to cause breast growth.
You might want to consider making a bargain with your wife to the extent that you would find the dosage that got rid of the dysphoria, but it would cause gynecomastia - which many men get nowadays anyway thanks to pollution, unethical food production and drug abuse - but in return you would stop asking for permission to otherwise feminise (which you would not need to do anyway if you get the dose right). There is always the option of breast reduction - a very common operation for men.
That's the arrangement that I have with my wife and it works well.
B.
Bryony, you persist on believing that everyone is like you with your prescription for treating GD. Unfortunately, we are all unique in our gender make up and the way we react to being mismatched to our birth assigned gender.
I mentioned before that I was drawn to your theory back in 2013 as a way to treat my own GD while still maintaining the male role in my marriage. Yes, I found relief from mental distress by taking estrogenic herbs (PM), and yes, I was able to maintain male sexual function by taking monthly cold-turkey breaks. I was able to lower my estrogen dosage to just 1500 mg of PM a day and still maintain the therapeutic results I was looking for. Everything seemed to be working as expected, but...
As time went on, the intensity of my female gender identity increased. The GD began to return. I noticed changes in my temperament, and my need to express my feminine side increased. I started to cross dress for the first time unlike many whose need to cross dress diminishes as T levels fall.
It wasn't working, and I attribute it to the activation of estrogen receptors in my brain (much like what happens in breast tissue) as my T vs. E levels shifted to estrogen. In short, for me, there was NO optimal estrogen level that would create a stable middle ground allowing me to fulfill a male role while holding back my inner woman. My gender identity is too far to the opposite end of the gender spectrum. If I was more in the middle, it might have worked. The fact is, I'm transsexual. I have no doubt about it.
Is it possible to live 66 years as a male while possessing such a strong feminine gender identity? The answer clearly is yes in my case. Could I have continued in a male role despite my gender dysphoria for the sake of my family? In my opinion, no. It became unbearable, which is why I sought relief, and am now in the middle of a full MTF transition.
Once I started down that path, there was no turning back. Fortunately, for me, my wife was sympathetic to my suffering, wanted to help me, and was willing to take it step by step for as long as possible.
But, what if she hadn't been willing to work with me, as is the case for so many other wives? What if she later finds out that she can't handle being married to a woman? What if I find myself being attracted to a man down the road and wanting a heterosexual relationship? Would I, out of love for her, go back to being a husband?
We've talked about these possibilities should they arise. She and I have been open and honest about our feelings; we trust that we will be able to work out an arrangement that is fair to both of us. The key for us was to remove the uncertainty, and, therefore, the fear of whatever the future has in store. Neither of us wants to end our relationship, but neither do we want the other to be unhappy. We can't foresee the future, but we can set the stage for whatever happens: no blaming; no hidden agendas; no guilt; no shame.
Clara
I mentioned before that I was drawn to your theory back in 2013 as a way to treat my own GD while still maintaining the male role in my marriage. Yes, I found relief from mental distress by taking estrogenic herbs (PM), and yes, I was able to maintain male sexual function by taking monthly cold-turkey breaks. I was able to lower my estrogen dosage to just 1500 mg of PM a day and still maintain the therapeutic results I was looking for. Everything seemed to be working as expected, but...
As time went on, the intensity of my female gender identity increased. The GD began to return. I noticed changes in my temperament, and my need to express my feminine side increased. I started to cross dress for the first time unlike many whose need to cross dress diminishes as T levels fall.
It wasn't working, and I attribute it to the activation of estrogen receptors in my brain (much like what happens in breast tissue) as my T vs. E levels shifted to estrogen. In short, for me, there was NO optimal estrogen level that would create a stable middle ground allowing me to fulfill a male role while holding back my inner woman. My gender identity is too far to the opposite end of the gender spectrum. If I was more in the middle, it might have worked. The fact is, I'm transsexual. I have no doubt about it.
Is it possible to live 66 years as a male while possessing such a strong feminine gender identity? The answer clearly is yes in my case. Could I have continued in a male role despite my gender dysphoria for the sake of my family? In my opinion, no. It became unbearable, which is why I sought relief, and am now in the middle of a full MTF transition.
Once I started down that path, there was no turning back. Fortunately, for me, my wife was sympathetic to my suffering, wanted to help me, and was willing to take it step by step for as long as possible.
But, what if she hadn't been willing to work with me, as is the case for so many other wives? What if she later finds out that she can't handle being married to a woman? What if I find myself being attracted to a man down the road and wanting a heterosexual relationship? Would I, out of love for her, go back to being a husband?
We've talked about these possibilities should they arise. She and I have been open and honest about our feelings; we trust that we will be able to work out an arrangement that is fair to both of us. The key for us was to remove the uncertainty, and, therefore, the fear of whatever the future has in store. Neither of us wants to end our relationship, but neither do we want the other to be unhappy. We can't foresee the future, but we can set the stage for whatever happens: no blaming; no hidden agendas; no guilt; no shame.
Clara
Clara,
I'll turn it around - why do you then persist in advising people as though they were like you?
I'm getting a bit tired of you treating me as though I were somehow aberrant and a one-off phenomenon. I'm not the only person here who is able to cope with PM alone.
I can only go on the evidence. To me, hurricane's problems seem to be addressable in less drastic ways than you seem to prefer.
It is up to hurricane to consider what is most likely to be beneficial to the situation.
I think you should provide advice to people seeking it from your own perspective and experience and not judge the advice of others for whom it has worked.
A major point is, your kids are grown up and have left home. Your wife is, presumably, menopausal. Neither of these things apply to hurricane, so the situation is entirely different. He has more to lose than you do, who is, forgive me, a bit closer to the last lap (as am I, so I'm not being rude).
You say my methods did not work for you. Maybe, but your situation was such that you did not need to persevere. Your income is a lot better than most people, enabling you to get FFS which is a major factor in "passing"; you have a pliant wife who lets you get on with things; and you are not the first person that I've seen here who, once they get to dressing up regularly ,throw a hissy fit at the idea of getting back into drab. All in all, it's so much easier to go with the flow, especially with all the encouragement that is available (apart from me - sorry.)
My feeling is that the only difference between you and me is the pink fog you got by constant exposure to girly things.
You can talk transsexual 'til the cows come home, but I'm quite sure that I would be the same, (a) if I was allowed to and (b) if I didn't have the kind of hypercritical eye that looks in the mirror, induces a wry chuckle and a "naahhhh...."
Give me the megabucks for a Nina Arsenault workover, a 30-year rejuvenation formula and a family as amenable as yours and I'd be right up there.
Here in the real world, where Hurricane lives, I respectfully suggest he should try it my way first.
B.
(off now until Tuesday)
I'll turn it around - why do you then persist in advising people as though they were like you?
I'm getting a bit tired of you treating me as though I were somehow aberrant and a one-off phenomenon. I'm not the only person here who is able to cope with PM alone.
I can only go on the evidence. To me, hurricane's problems seem to be addressable in less drastic ways than you seem to prefer.
It is up to hurricane to consider what is most likely to be beneficial to the situation.
I think you should provide advice to people seeking it from your own perspective and experience and not judge the advice of others for whom it has worked.
A major point is, your kids are grown up and have left home. Your wife is, presumably, menopausal. Neither of these things apply to hurricane, so the situation is entirely different. He has more to lose than you do, who is, forgive me, a bit closer to the last lap (as am I, so I'm not being rude).
You say my methods did not work for you. Maybe, but your situation was such that you did not need to persevere. Your income is a lot better than most people, enabling you to get FFS which is a major factor in "passing"; you have a pliant wife who lets you get on with things; and you are not the first person that I've seen here who, once they get to dressing up regularly ,throw a hissy fit at the idea of getting back into drab. All in all, it's so much easier to go with the flow, especially with all the encouragement that is available (apart from me - sorry.)
My feeling is that the only difference between you and me is the pink fog you got by constant exposure to girly things.
You can talk transsexual 'til the cows come home, but I'm quite sure that I would be the same, (a) if I was allowed to and (b) if I didn't have the kind of hypercritical eye that looks in the mirror, induces a wry chuckle and a "naahhhh...."
Give me the megabucks for a Nina Arsenault workover, a 30-year rejuvenation formula and a family as amenable as yours and I'd be right up there.
Here in the real world, where Hurricane lives, I respectfully suggest he should try it my way first.
B.
(off now until Tuesday)
I suggest Hurricane tries it his/her way having listened to as many viewpoints as he/she can possibly get.
It is not for anyone to do more than give their own personal experiences. It is very wrong for any of us to assume that what worked for us will necessarily be of any value to anyone else . None of us can prejudge what is right for another.
With this in mind, can I suggest that we try to refrain from getting over-heated about all this - it is probably not helping Hurricane one little bit.
Miranda
It is not for anyone to do more than give their own personal experiences. It is very wrong for any of us to assume that what worked for us will necessarily be of any value to anyone else . None of us can prejudge what is right for another.
With this in mind, can I suggest that we try to refrain from getting over-heated about all this - it is probably not helping Hurricane one little bit.
Miranda
I'm here for suggestions, opinions and ideas. I have always been the type that takes it all in, processes everything, then pick parts from any that I feel I can agree with, or that I feel is in the realm of plausible.
I work very heavily in IT. When I am writing code or working on a script, there are 5 ways to get to the same result (or similar). I have to pick and choose my paths and find the ones that I feel match my ultimate goal. However, in THIS instance, I am unclear what my goal is. I've followed each of you and your journey and have analyzed where each has come from, and where you're going. It gives me a vague idea of what I have coming.
So, I always end with some off-topic statement.. Last night I decided to finally epilate my legs. Used to shave, and tried waxing twice (both times were failures) but decided that since the epilator was there, I should see how bad it really is.. It hurt, but I was successful. Took about a half an hour. Awesome! - Night.
I work very heavily in IT. When I am writing code or working on a script, there are 5 ways to get to the same result (or similar). I have to pick and choose my paths and find the ones that I feel match my ultimate goal. However, in THIS instance, I am unclear what my goal is. I've followed each of you and your journey and have analyzed where each has come from, and where you're going. It gives me a vague idea of what I have coming.
So, I always end with some off-topic statement.. Last night I decided to finally epilate my legs. Used to shave, and tried waxing twice (both times were failures) but decided that since the epilator was there, I should see how bad it really is.. It hurt, but I was successful. Took about a half an hour. Awesome! - Night.
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