[Lenneth]

I know for sure that ETHYLENE glycol is used in cars and better known as antifreeze. It is certainly poisonous to animals and of course humans. However, PROPYLENE glycol is considered safe for human consumption by the FDA (if you trust them). The oral LD50 (lethal dose needed to kill 50% of a population) for propylene glycol is 20,000 mg/kg. the lethal dose for table salt for comparison is 3000 mg/kg. Table salt is more poisonous than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol has many uses including e cigs and RV antifreeze precisely because it is fairly safe although not recommended for consumption in sizable quantities.

Um the Antifreze I use is Propylene Glycol and is labeled as "Poisonous"
"Zyrex Gold"

...I would never drink from a Dodge radiator by the way, that's just disgusting! Ford or Honda maybe, but not a Dodge. I wont even drive those pathetic autos.

LOL

I actually like Dodge's & Fords

****There's a reason most mechanics where gloves****
the chemicals we use are fkn dangerous, endocrine disruptors (most wouldn't know this)....

Never knew that, would explain why my GD bugs me when I forget to wear Gloves when messing with some automotive chemicals....

[Marina Kits]

Um the Antifreze I use is Propylene Glycol and is labeled as "Poisonous"
"Zyrex Gold"

It's not PURE propylene glycol. It has many additives for use in engines including corrosion inhibitors which I'd guess, are the real poisons.

[JohnnyK]

Hey all. Long time lurker pulled out from under the rock. Xxd almost pulled me out with his scientific approach to NBE.

This has been a question I have thought of often. (No, nothing about the off topic thread stealing conversation of anti freeze).

Rectal medication administration, in my opinion would be a more concentrated systemic delivery mechanism. Yes, all blood will pass through the liver. The first pass metabolism of the stomach will break down some of the drug. If you are taking the drugs on any empty stomach, it will pass through faster, leading to less destruction of the drug.

My question is where this drug is most optimally absorbed. Some are better absorbed by the intestine, others through stomach wall lining. You will notice that many drugs are coated. This is to provide a buffer to the stomach acid break down (denaturing) of the active chemicals.

Upper intestinal absorption, just like the stomach, goes to the liver. Stomach absorption hits the same blood stream as the intestine and goes to the liver first.

However, the lower (and mid) intestine will bypass the liver for the first pass. I don't know about the actually conversion of the chemicals (others on the site apparently do), and whether the liver is in deed needed or not. If it is not needed (contrary to what was said in this post alone) then the lower administration would be better. If it needs to be broken down by the liver, then the drug will be in the blood stream a bit longer, being less effective. However, there will be more drug in the stream as it was broken down less.

However, there is the mechanism of absorption in the lower intestine. Is the drug too large? Is it too polar (molecular charge)? Powder would be quite poor compared to a liquid suspension. Is it acidic (alkaline is better absorbed)?

And then you need to be worried about intestinal wall irritation and even damage if the chemicals are too harsh.

Hmm, I guess those university bio-psychology courses did actually sink in somewhere.

Hope this helps.

----
Editted: Further clarification

[Elisaustin]

No Anti Freeze for this gurl.
But from a unscientific gay transgender point of view.
I have tried things from both ends and found they had similar out comes.
I just have not tried PM that way yet lol.

[MyNewGyrlz]

Propylene glycol is only slightly more poisonous than water according the the msds. The LD50 for PG is between 18,000mg/Kg to 21,000mg/Kg depending on whether it is a rat or rabbit tested. Water is usually just listed as >90mg/Kg in the msds, but you can find studies that have seen LD50's at arount 25,000mg/Kg for rats.

In other words, LD50 is Lethal Dose 50% of the time. So to be lethal, I would have to take around 20,000mg X my body weight of 84Kg or 1,680,000 mg of propylene glycol at a time to have a 50% chance of lethal side effects. Considering I inhale about 4mg a week, I think I'll be all right.

Propylene glycol is considered to be a food safe additive and is used extensively as a medical inhaler for various drugs, if it was as poisonous as you scare mongers seem to think, I think the FDA would be cracking down on the eCigarette's, but they aren't.

I do know that it is an effective delivery method, I have been taking it this way for a few months and have seen significant progress, although at my current concentration (50% concentrate and 50% 24mg/L nicotine PG) there is too much Ainterol concentrate to hit it often enough to satisfy my nicotine cravings (a typical smoker needs about 3ml of 12-14mg/L PG a day), so I am still smoking regular cigarettes. My next batch I'll cut the concentration of ainterol down so I can hit the nicotine laced pg more often.

[MyNewGyrlz]

Hey all. Long time lurker pulled out from under the rock. Xxd almost pulled me out with his scientific approach to NBE.

This has been a question I have thought of often. (No, nothing about the off topic thread stealing conversation of anti freeze).

Rectal medication administration, in my opinion would be a more concentrated systemic delivery mechanism. Yes, all blood will pass through the liver. The first pass metabolism of the stomach will break down some of the drug. If you are taking the drugs on any empty stomach, it will pass through faster, leading to less destruction of the drug.

My question is where this drug is most optimally absorbed. Some are better absorbed by the intestine, others through stomach wall lining. You will notice that many drugs are coated. This is to provide a buffer to the stomach acid break down (denaturing) of the active chemicals.

Upper intestinal absorption, just like the stomach, goes to the liver. Stomach absorption hits the same blood stream as the intestine and goes to the liver first.

However, the lower (and mid) intestine will bypass the liver for the first pass. I don't know about the actually conversion of the chemicals (others on the site apparently do), and whether the liver is in deed needed or not. If it is not needed (contrary to what was said in this post alone) then the lower administration would be better. If it needs to be broken down by the liver, then the drug will be in the blood stream a bit longer, being less effective. However, there will be more drug in the stream as it was broken down less.

However, there is the mechanism of absorption in the lower intestine. Is the drug too large? Is it too polar (molecular charge)? Powder would be quite poor compared to a liquid suspension. Is it acidic (alkaline is better absorbed)?

And then you need to be worried about intestinal wall irritation and even damage if the chemicals are too harsh.

Hmm, I guess those university bio-psychology courses did actually sink in somewhere.

Hope this helps.

----
Editted: Further clarification

There are two different forms of this herbal supplement available. The powder form, and the extract form. As the names imply, the powder form is just the powdered root which contains an unknown quantity of the active ingredient which is miroesterol and/or deoxymiroesterol; the extract form is a chemical extract that binds to the active ingredients and extracts them from the powder so they are more accessible to absorption without having to go through the digestion process. Propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin are typically used for sterols like miroesterol and or deoxymiroesterol. This extract is much more concentrated with the active ingredients than the powder which requires going through the digestive process to extract the active ingredients for absorption.

The extract is readily absorbed through mucous membranes like the mouth, nose, lungs, colon, etc; the powder needs to be broken down by the acids and bacteria in the stomach to extract the small sterol molecules for it to be effective. The extract can be absorbed through the skin, but it is not nearly effective as through mucous membranes (see above).

[MonikaT]

Propylene glycol is only slightly more poisonous than water according the the msds. The LD50 for PG is between 18,000mg/Kg to 21,000mg/Kg depending on whether it is a rat or rabbit tested. Water is usually just listed as >90mg/Kg in the msds, but you can find studies that have seen LD50's at arount 25,000mg/Kg for rats.

In other words, LD50 is Lethal Dose 50% of the time. So to be lethal, I would have to take around 20,000mg X my body weight of 84Kg or 1,680,000 mg of propylene glycol at a time to have a 50% chance of lethal side effects. Considering I inhale about 4mg a week, I think I'll be all right.

Propylene glycol is considered to be a food safe additive and is used extensively as a medical inhaler for various drugs, if it was as poisonous as you scare mongers seem to think, I think the FDA would be cracking down on the eCigarette's, but they aren't.

I do know that it is an effective delivery method, I have been taking it this way for a few months and have seen significant progress, although at my current concentration (50% concentrate and 50% 24mg/L nicotine PG) there is too much Ainterol concentrate to hit it often enough to satisfy my nicotine cravings (a typical smoker needs about 3ml of 12-14mg/L PG a day), so I am still smoking regular cigarettes. My next batch I'll cut the concentration of ainterol down so I can hit the nicotine laced pg more often.

I agree that propylene glycol is safe at the levels being used. I've seen PG as a component of artificial vanilla extract as well as on the ingredient list of various baked goods. Many of the fear mongers have likely ingested small amounts throughout their lives without even realizing it.

However, I think your math is off on the LD50 for your body weight. There is the matter of the rate at which each species metabolizes. Someone like Chrishoney probably knows this stuff better than I do, but I remember reading on a different forum on an unrelated topic that, for example, it is necessary to divide the dose for mice by roughly 7 to get the dose for humans. It isn't as simple as a 1-to-1 relationship. Regardless, the LD50 for a human is still many, many more times what anyone could reasonably consume, even if it is likely much smaller than what you have calculated.

[JennyGenesis]

Propylene glycol is only slightly more poisonous than water according the the msds. The LD50 for PG is between 18,000mg/Kg to 21,000mg/Kg depending on whether it is a rat or rabbit tested. Water is usually just listed as >90mg/Kg in the msds, but you can find studies that have seen LD50's at arount 25,000mg/Kg for rats.

In other words, LD50 is Lethal Dose 50% of the time. So to be lethal, I would have to take around 20,000mg X my body weight of 84Kg or 1,680,000 mg of propylene glycol at a time to have a 50% chance of lethal side effects. Considering I inhale about 4mg a week, I think I'll be all right.

Propylene glycol is considered to be a food safe additive and is used extensively as a medical inhaler for various drugs, if it was as poisonous as you scare mongers seem to think, I think the FDA would be cracking down on the eCigarette's, but they aren't.

I do know that it is an effective delivery method, I have been taking it this way for a few months and have seen significant progress, although at my current concentration (50% concentrate and 50% 24mg/L nicotine PG) there is too much Ainterol concentrate to hit it often enough to satisfy my nicotine cravings (a typical smoker needs about 3ml of 12-14mg/L PG a day), so I am still smoking regular cigarettes. My next batch I'll cut the concentration of ainterol down so I can hit the nicotine laced pg more often.

Well, Hell, if you're going to follow this train of stupidity.... drink bleach to clean your colon.
The FDA ALWAYS has YOU in mind NOT their profits from the fuckers paying them.
What I'm telling you is FACT!! Propylene Glycol IS POISON!! If it's in your food or used as an additive STOP EATING/USING THAT SHIT!! I'm not trying to be a fear monger.... not trying to scare anyone..... trying to educate/help, nothing more...

In liquid form PG is safe for the most part in small doses.... but inhaled? You're playing with fire.

It must be safe if it's in your e-cigs now that commercials make real cigs out to be poison right? Why do you think you have sweet smelling/tasting "water vapor"? Antifreeze has a sweet smell AND taste.... has a smoke vapor around 180-225 degrees....Think.... PLEASE.... Use your brain, ask questions, think.... do some research.... They are from the SAME companies....

I don't care if you don't like me.... If I make you think even for 1 minute about anything or even make you want to research something.... I'm good with that.

I never meant to "steal" this post.... but if people read this and understand this than I'm happy. I wish you ALL the best.

~Jenny~

[MyNewGyrlz]

Propylene glycol is only slightly more poisonous than water according the the msds. The LD50 for PG is between 18,000mg/Kg to 21,000mg/Kg depending on whether it is a rat or rabbit tested. Water is usually just listed as >90mg/Kg in the msds, but you can find studies that have seen LD50's at arount 25,000mg/Kg for rats.

In other words, LD50 is Lethal Dose 50% of the time. So to be lethal, I would have to take around 20,000mg X my body weight of 84Kg or 1,680,000 mg of propylene glycol at a time to have a 50% chance of lethal side effects. Considering I inhale about 4mg a week, I think I'll be all right.

Propylene glycol is considered to be a food safe additive and is used extensively as a medical inhaler for various drugs, if it was as poisonous as you scare mongers seem to think, I think the FDA would be cracking down on the eCigarette's, but they aren't.

I do know that it is an effective delivery method, I have been taking it this way for a few months and have seen significant progress, although at my current concentration (50% concentrate and 50% 24mg/L nicotine PG) there is too much Ainterol concentrate to hit it often enough to satisfy my nicotine cravings (a typical smoker needs about 3ml of 12-14mg/L PG a day), so I am still smoking regular cigarettes. My next batch I'll cut the concentration of ainterol down so I can hit the nicotine laced pg more often.

Well, Hell, if you're going to follow this train of stupidity.... drink bleach to clean your colon.
The FDA ALWAYS has YOU in mind NOT their profits from the fuckers paying them.
What I'm telling you is FACT!! Propylene Glycol IS POISON!! If it's in your food or used as an additive STOP EATING/USING THAT SHIT!! I'm not trying to be a fear monger.... not trying to scare anyone..... trying to educate/help, nothing more...

In liquid form PG is safe for the most part in small doses.... but inhaled? You're playing with fire.

It must be safe if it's in your e-cigs now that commercials make real cigs out to be poison right? Why do you think you have sweet smelling/tasting "water vapor"? Antifreeze has a sweet smell AND taste.... has a smoke vapor around 180-225 degrees....Think.... PLEASE.... Use your brain, ask questions, think.... do some research.... They are from the SAME companies....

I don't care if you don't like me.... If I make you think even for 1 minute about anything or even make you want to research something.... I'm good with that.

I never meant to "steal" this post.... but if people read this and understand this than I'm happy. I wish you ALL the best.

~Jenny~

It's not that I don't like you, I don't even know you. However I do know your type. You are uneducated in the sciences, so you get your science from the news and popular propaganda sites and believe them because you think you should believe what the 'experts' say. I, however, was well educated with a strong science background, I can read and write scientific papers. I can and do always read the scientific papers underlying popular media claims and have the ability to discern whether they are based on substantiated claims and/or research and I can understand the fallacies that are introduced by statistics (shame that they don't require stats for most science degrees these days).

I usually tend to avoid wikipedia because the articles can be very biased, but have you read the entry for propylene glycol? Better yet, have you read and understood the referenced citations?

Propylene glycol is used in inhaled medications, injected medications, and many other products. I hear you crying 'poison', but haven't seen any references to published scientific research showing that is harmful in the dosages or usage we are discussing.

As you can see, I have given this much more thought than you apparently have, probably did before I even decided to try eCigarettes, let alone formulating my own inhaler for the PM concentrate.

BTW what are your thoughts on vegetable glycerin, is that poison too? I ask because that is the other popular solvent used in eCigs and as an alternative to propylene glycol for an organic carrier tjat easily vaporizes. How about 'Global Warming', I'm pretty sure you are an alarmist about that as well.