[Eloise]

I think Lotus recommended that you start off with one estrogenic herb so that would mean keeping PM and dropping RC. You do not want to flood your estrogen receptors and/or have RC's weaker estrogen overshadow PM's stronger estrogen, so to speak. It's not so much about quantity as it is about quality.

[BlueCoral]

Well there's a number of factors involved in the process before saying what could be of the best approach for you, e.g. age, bmi, diet, overall health, meds you take that can impact absorption of other supplements, etc. For instance, fenugreek can impact the effectiveness of other supplements, RC will compete with PM. High dose PM doesn't work, instead it's just wasting money. Flooding your system with PM or what ever E source you use doesn't get you there any faster, instead, shorter bursts (or duration) of supplementing follows the half-life of steroidal receptors and drug half-life.

Feel free to pm if you'd rather discuss in private.

Okay then, I've PM'd you.

[Lotus]

the following reflects updated info: some of the links needs updating, my apologies for any inconvenience. However, I will not make apologies for adding this info, and I will not stand by and hear about good people endangering themselves when we have the info and responsibility to pass such information along.

PM-pro-aromatase (Genistein), potential to suppress gonadotropins, potential vasoconstrictor, can increase the potential for blood clots relative to estradiol (especially if you are predisposed).

---------------------------------------------------------

Also posted in the Herbal FAQ,

Herbs/plant based and grains used for breast enlargement

• PUERARIA MIRIFCA- The most potent phytoestrogen, targets E receptors, phyto-androgen (daidzien) pro-aromatase (Genistein), potential to suppress gonadotropins, potential vasoconstrictor, can increase the potential for blood clots relative to estradiol (especially if you are predisposed).
  

PUERARIA MIRIFICA -Moderate Interaction

• FENUGREEK- Prolactin stimulate, increases production of estrogen, phytoestrogen, adaptogen
  

FENUGREEK- Moderate Interaction

• BLESSED THISTLE- Increases the flow of milk, (causes irritation of GI tract)
  

BLESSED THISTLE Minor Interaction

• NETTLE ROOT-Binds to SHBG, increases estrogen and testosterone
  

NETTLE

• SAW PALMETTO-DHT inhibiting effect, decreases progesterone receptors, (Taking saw palmetto along with estrogen pills might decrease the effectiveness of estrogen pills).

SAW PALMETTO -Moderate Interaction

• HOPS-Activates alpha estrogen receptors which stimulates breast growth, increases SHBG which binds free testosterone
  

HOPS -Moderate Interaction

• WHITE PEONY ROOTEstrogenic, blocks 5-ar and pro-aromatase, strong
  

WHITE PEONY ROOT-Moderate Interaction

• FENNEL-Promotes milk production, nutrient rich for NBE growth, stimulates the growth of breast tissue

FENNEL -Moderate Interaction

• WILD YAM-Stimulates hormone production, increases progesterone, prolactin, anti-androgen, and slows the metabolism of estrone, one of the body's own estrogens.
  

WILD YAM

• DONG QUAI-Balance hormones, assists breast enlargement, improves gland function
  activities

DONG QUAI Major Interaction

• RED CLOVER-Minor aromatase inhibitor, highly estrogenic, Binds to alpha estrogen receptor
  

RED CLOVER Moderate Interaction

• LICORICE ROOT-Anti-androgenic, activates alpha and beta estrogen receptors and blocks 5-ar, DGL is thought to have fewer side effects

LICORICE ROOT Major Interaction

• ANISE-Stimulates breast growth by increasing E, (1980 study published in the Journal of Ethnopharmacology)

ANISE

• BLACK COHOSH-Appears to bind to estrogen receptors, mimics hormonal effects of estrogen, estriol

BLACK COHOSH

• ALFALFANatural phytoestrogens, helps with menopausal symptoms, inhibits bone loss caused by estrogen deficiency

ALFALFA Major Interaction

• CHASTE TREE-Corrects hormone imbalances, increases LH in favor of E and progesterone

CHASTEBERRY -Moderate Interaction

• MACA ROOT-Abundant in amino acids, phytonutrients, healthy fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals, increase in energy and libido, adaptogen

MACA + MACA

• GOATS RUE-Builds breast tissue and increases milk supply
  

GOAT'S RUE -Moderate Interaction

• RED REISHI-Significantly reduces levels of 5-alpha reductase (DHT)
  

REISHI -Moderate Interaction

• SHATAVARI-Phytoestrogen, normalizes estrogen levels, prolactin source, adaptogen
  

SHATAVARI -Moderate Interaction

• ASHWAGANDHA-Adaptogen, restores a sense of well-being, similar to Panax ginseng

ASHWAGANDHA -Moderate Interaction

• DANDELION ROOT-Upregulates estrogen receptors, uses the estrogen you are putting in

DANDELION- Moderate Interaction

• DAMIANA-For hormone imbalance, improve poor mammary gland development
  

DAMIANA -Moderate Interaction

• MILK THISLTE-Cleanses the liver of excess hormones
  

MILK THISTLE -Moderate Interaction

• CHINESE SKULLCAP-Inhibits 5-alpha-reductase enzyme
  

SKULLCAP -Moderate Interaction

• MARSHMALLOW ROOT-Inhibits Hyaluronidase, increases tissue permeability
  

MARSHMALLOW -Moderate Interaction

• WATERCRESS-Increases energy, high in iron and vitamin E
  

WATERCRESS -Moderate Interaction

• RED RASPBERRY--Balance hormones, promotes breast health
  

RED RASPBERRY

• PASSION FLOWER-Calming agent that adds to total well being
  

PASSIONFLOWER -Moderate Interaction

• SENNA-To increase absorption and effectiveness of herbs, eliminates toxins
  

SENNA -Moderate Interaction

• PYGEUM-Reduces the level of DHT, reduces prolacting levels, Inhibits 5-alpha reductase

PYGEUM

• SPEARMINT-Anti-androgenic properties reduces the level of free testosterone in the blood, while leaving total testosterone and DHEAS unaffected

SPEARMINT

• FLAX-Phytoestrogen, increases SHBG, source of omega-3 fatty acids, Lignans (Flaxseed) inhibits aromatase and lowers estrogen levels.
  

FLAXSEED -Moderate Interaction

• OATS-Phytoestrogen, decreases SHBG, source of zinc, iron, vitamins B6, vitamin E and amino acids

OATS

• YOGURT--Rich in vitamins, calcium and minerals, growth factors stimulate fibroblast proliferation, collagen, probiotic , and has lactic acid component

YOGURT -Moderate Interaction

• PABA- Decreases breakdown of estrogen in your body so you have more free estrogen.
  

PABA Major Interaction

• COCONUT OIL- Makes connective tissues stronger, superb antioxidant, neutralizes free radicals and slowing down aging, aids in breast feeding, nature's richest source of MCFAs."
  

COCCONUT OIL

• LADIES MANTLE-The Tannis (6-8%) in LM causes contractions, protects conjunctive and elastic tissues, contains salicylic acid (a mild painkilling action) for painful menstrual periods, It's astringent increases blood flow for circulation and helps with saggy breasts.
  

LADY'S MANTLE

Always consult with a medical professional when having concerns about NBE and NBE supplements.

-More to follow-

(The Herb Interactions comes from the FAQ-Herb interaction which Peggy created, thanks again Peggy)

[Lotus]

Herbs/plant based and grains used for breast enlargement

• Alfalfa-Natural phytoestrogens, helps with menopausal symptoms, inhibits bone loss caused by estrogen deficiency

• Anise-Stimulates breast growth by increasing E, (1980 study published in the Journal of Ethnopharmacology)

• Ashwagandha-Adaptogen, restores a sense of well-being, similar to Panax ginseng

• Black cohosh-Appears to bind to estrogen receptors, mimics hormonal effects of estrogen, estriol

• Blessed thistle-Increases the flow of milk, (causes irritation of GI tract)
  

• Chaste tree-Corrects hormone imbalances, increases LH in favor of Estrogen, binds to ER-a (estrogen receptor alpha) progesterone receptor

• Chinese Skullcap-Inhibits 5-alpha-reductase enzyme
  

• Coconut Oil-Makes connective tissues stronger, superb antioxidant, neutralizes free radicals and slowing down aging, aids in breast feeding, nature's richest source of MCFAs. 5 ar inhibitor, aromatase
  

• Dandelion root-Upregulates estrogen receptors, useful for detox

• Damiana-For hormone imbalance, improve poor mammary gland development
  

• Dong Quai-Balance hormones, assists breast enlargement, improves gland function activities

• Fennel-Promotes milk production, nutrient rich for NBE growth, stimulates the growth of breast tissue

• Fenugreek-Prolactin source, phytoestrogen, adaptogen, lowers blood sugars (caution)
  

• Flax-Phytoestrogen, increases SHBG, source of omega-3 fatty acids, anti-estrogenic activity/aromatase
  

• Goats rue-Builds breast tissue and increases milk supply
  

• Hops-estrogen receptors alpha ER-a (which stimulates breast growth), increases SHBG which binds free testosterone
  

• Ladies Mantle--The Tannis (6-8%) in LM causes contractions, protects conjunctive and elastic tissues, contains salicylic acid (a mild painkilling action) for painful menstrual periods, It's astringent increases blood flow for circulation and helps with saggy breasts.
  

• Nettle root-Binds to SHBG, increases estrogen and testosterone
  

• Oats-Phytoestrogen, decreases SHBG, source of zinc, iron, vitamins B6, vitamin E and amino acids

• Licorice Root-Anti-androgenic, activates alpha and beta estrogen receptors and blocks 5-ar, DGL is thought to have fewer side effects

• Maca root-Abundant in amino acids, phytonutrients, healthy fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals, increase in energy and libido, adaptogen

• Marshmallow Root-Inhibits Hyaluronidase, increases tissue permeability
  

• Milk Thistle-Cleanses the liver of excess hormones
  

• PABA- Decreases breakdown of estrogen in your body so you have more free estrogen.
  

• Passion Flower-Calming agent that adds to total well being
  

• Pueraria Mirifica-Phytoestrogen, minor anti-androgen (daidzien), anti-estrogenic (ER-beta), miroestrol/dexymiroestrol bind to estrogen receptors (ER-a)
  

• Pygeum-Reduces the level of DHT, reduces prolacting levels, Inhibits 5-alpha reductase

• Red clover-Minor aromatase inhibitor, highly estrogenic, Binds to alpha estrogen receptor alpha (ER-a)
  

• Red raspberry--Balance hormones, promotes breast health
  

• Red Reishi-Significantly reduces levels of 5-alpha reductase (DHT)
  

• Saw palmetto-DHT inhibiting effect, acts on progesterone receptors (causing a reduction in estrogen levels)

• Shatavari-Phytoestrogen, normalizes estrogen levels, prolactin source, adaptogen
  

• Senna-To increase absorption and effectiveness of herbs, eliminates toxins
  

• Spearmint-Anti-androgenic properties, reduces the level of free testosterone in the blood, while leaving total testosterone and DHEAS unaffected

• Watercress-Increases energy, high in iron and vitamin E
  

• White peony root-Estrogenic, blocks 5-ar and pro-aromatase
  

• Wild yam-Stimulates hormone production, increases progesterone, prolactin, anti-androgen, and slows the metabolism of estrone, one of the body's own estrogens.
  

• Yogurt-Rich in vitamins, calcium and minerals, growth factors stimulate fibroblast proliferation, collagen, probiotic , and has lactic acid component

Always consult with a medical professional when having concerns about NBE and NBE supplements.

-More to follow-

[ElainMoria]

Quick question... when used in combination with BO, would green tea extract be inhibitory for breast growth or salutary? My primary goal is total feminization but i'm not noticing anything other then perpetually hard nipples and I kinda think by now I should be noticing 'something' more than that... I also suspect my T and DHT levels are somewhat on the high side for GM. My doctor did give me a script for 25mg of Aldactone (Spiro). I'm just wondering if something in my current plan is throwing me off base because I kinda feel like I should be noticing some changes starting by now... Or am I just being too impatient and need to chill my jets?

My current Plan:

*Bovine Ovary 750mg 4x daily (3000 mg total)
*Progesterone cream massage 2x-3x weekly
*Multi-Vitamin 2x daily
*Calcium Citrate 2x daily
*Coconut Oil 1 Tablespoon 3x daily
*Vitamin C 1000mg 2x daily (as Ascorbic Acid.. I will be switching to a C-Complex as soon as I use these up)
*Flax seed oil (Omega 3-6-9) 1000mg 2x daily
*Spironolactone 25mg 1x daily

Haven't started yet:

Estrace 2mg 2x daily
Finasteride 5mg 1x daily

*already using

[Lotus]

Having green tea in a program adds multiple NBE benefits,

5 ar inhibitor, promotes aromatase, anti-oxidation, estrogen, modifies signaling transduction pathways, relieves oxidative stress (reduces lipid oxidation), possess potent iron-chelating radical-scavenging and anti-inflammatory activities (polyphenols are powerful free radical destroyers), protects against neurological diseases. Green tea catechins ameliorate adipose insulin resistance.

Honestly?, I think BO is the issue. I have to agree with Monika and say at most, BO is an aromatase. Minus the BO its a solid program, I think you're missing a pro-ER-a option, (estrogen receptor alpha). Even E2 (estradiol) doesn't bind to ER-a in significance, adding something like vitex or red clover activates ER-a, HOPs does too. So does ALA (alpha linolenic acid)-omega 3 fatty acid.

The following statements reveal some explanations as to why growth isn't the same for everyone.

One-third of the genes that are regulated by ERs do not contain ERE-like sequences (estrogen response elements)

Estrogen also activates rapid signaling pathways of other pathways, MAPKs and PI3K which, in turn, can modulate transcription and proliferation (growth)

MAPKs: mitogen-activated protein kinases
PI3K: phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase


ERα induction is responsible for the proliferative effects of estrogens, while ERβ activation balances the ERα-dependent responses

Translation, not everyone carries the same amount estrogen growth gene's (DNA), so when phytoestrogens or pharma E is introduced the switch is automatically turned on. It's a slow progression.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/...#RW0717-27

Edit-what type (brand) of BO is it?, how do we authentic BO?, when was it brought to the market, bovines have a cycle too. Catch my drift?

[Toni68!]

Will norgestrel increase breast growth. If so I would love to try it

[Lotus]

Will norgestrel increase breast growth. If so I would love to try it

Hi Toni, I'm not a fan of using synthetic estradiol like Ethinyestradoil. EE has some benefit towards breast growth, but there's far more risk to using it over bioidentical estradiol. Other than what's listed in the wiki link below bone loss is a higher risk using synthetic estradiol. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinylestradiol
VTE is a blood clot in a vein, and includes deep vein thrombosis (DVT) and pulmonary embolism (PE).

Additionally, I don't recommend using combination oral contraceptive medications for growing breast. Plus, if you haven't developed breast buds yet I wouldn't use progestins or progesterone... it comprises breast growth until you grow breast buds first. I hope this information helps. 

[Brianna]

Will norgestrel increase breast growth. If so I would love to try it

Hi Toni, I'm not a fan of using synthetic estradiol like Ethinyestradoil. EE has some benefit towards breast growth, but there's far more risk to using it over bioidentical estradiol. Other than what's listed in the wiki link below bone loss is a higher risk using synthetic estradiol. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinylestradiol
VTE is a blood clot in a vein, and includes deep vein thrombosis (DVT) and pulmonary embolism (PE).

Additionally, I don't recommend using combination oral contraceptive medications for growing breast. Plus, if you haven't developed breast buds yet I wouldn't use progestins or progesterone... it comprises breast growth until you grow breast buds first. I hope this information helps. 

First off thank you Lotus for all you have done here for so many. I can't even imagine the hours you have dedicated to helping others here. I have spent days reading your posts. 

I think we need to give you an honorary NBE PHD and affectionately refer to you as Professor Lotus.

Anyways onto my question. I just started my journey. Currently taking 250mg BO, 80mg RR, and 500mg of RR twice daily. Working up to 1000mg of BO and potentially 1500mg. I do have gynecomastia and can feel small breast buds beneath each nipple already. Would I benefit from adding anything? I was thinking Fenugreek. Am I at a good point to already start PC? 

Thank you,

Brie

[Lotus]

First off thank you Lotus for all you have done here for so many. I can't even imagine the hours you have dedicated to helping others here. I have spent days reading your posts. 

I think we need to give you an honorary NBE PHD and affectionately refer to you as Professor Lotus.

Anyways onto my question. I just started my journey. Currently taking 250mg BO, 80mg RR, and 500mg of RR twice daily. Working up to 1000mg of BO and potentially 1500mg. I do have gynecomastia and can feel small breast buds beneath each nipple already. Would I benefit from adding anything? I was thinking Fenugreek. Am I at a good point to already start PC? 

Thank you,

Brie

 

Hi Brie, thank you for your kind words.  

I see you're taking 80mg of RR and 500mg of RR twice daily, I'm confused on the 80mg of RR.  If you've not started the 1,000 mg of BO as of yet… I'd say it's time to start. If it were me, I'd take two capsules of BO at bedtime and two BO capsules around noon. 

Here's something you can check on yourself in front of a mirror (privately of course ). Stand in front of a mirror with your arms up (fully extended upward), if you see your breasts disappear then you have all fat, as in gyno breasts. If you see small breasts that tells me you have breast buds… then adding PC makes sense. If breast buds aren't formed yet stay on the current course you're on. If that 80mg is RC (red clover) I'd say stay on that because it stimulates ER-a (estrogen receptor alpha) which will help build breast tissue (and breast buds). 

I would also add vitamin D3 (400iu or more per day), which helps breast growth by providing IGF-1 (insulin growth factor 1). Then for stimulating collagen add MSM at 3grams per day, protein (as in a no carb protein powder), and Vitamin C (at recommended dosage by the manufacturer instructions). BO helps both these essential growth properties (of MSM, protein powder and vitamin C).  

Ideally, you'll have some fat during your daily diet, which breasts need built upon. For example: I'll get fat from either Bacon, Eggs, cottage cheese and /or heavy whipping cream in my coffee. Drop your carbs to around 20mg per day, BO performs better when you incorporate intermittent fasting to reach autophagy:
https://www.healthline.com/health/autophagy
though not completely necessary as BO provides “sirtuins”... as explained in previous posts. Or you can add green tea because GTE stimulates the SIRT1/AMPK pathway:
SIRT1 promotes lipid metabolism and mitochondrial biogenesis in adipocytes and coordinates adipogenesis by targeting key enzymatic pathways
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-87759-x

Well, I hope this helps and isn't informational overload.