[Lotus]

White Peony--Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

Pygeum- include phytosterols that inhibit the production of dht. Pygeum also reduce's prolacting levels and block the accumulation of cholesterol in the prostate. Prolactin increase's the uptake of testosterone by the prostate. Pygeum reduces the levels of DHT in the blood and reduces the number of sites where the dht can attach.

Based on the above descriptions I see that White Peony is 'strong' and targets both DHT and testosterone, while Pygeum targets DHT only. Since my serum testosterone is already low (109 ng/dl), why would I want to drive it down further? DHT is my main enemy, I believe.

I'm not trying to be a pest on this, Lotus honey, I just want to understand the best course of action given my recent test results.

Clara

Oh, you'll never be a pest to me!

I'd say you have distinct knowledge already, knowing your test results is half the battle.

We still have an opportunity here to further explain the whole process of what the whole anti-androgen, 5-ar, Dht, pro-aromatase actions are.

With further explanation on total testosterone/free testosterone as it relates to NBE, one could make the best possible choice for an anti-androgen.

[GoneGirl]

Thanks for boosting my ego, Lotus honey, but I still struggle with the science.

I have to agree that having my testosterone tested was a huge plus for me. It really does help explain what's happening in my body, and suggests how I should adjust my program to better achieve my feminization goals. I assumed that my total T would be depressed, but I never dreamed it would be down to almost that of a GG, seeing as how I've not used herbal anti-androgens much at all.

I'll resume taking 200 mg/day of standardized Pygeum to help drive down my DHT, but skip the Spearmint when I resume my 1000 mg/day dose of PM next week when my 7-day break is over.

Clara

[Eloise]

Clara,

Congratulations on reducing your total T levels that low. That's amazing. Having a concrete number as a baseline duly fantastic. I'm no expert, but wouldn't it make sense to continue with your regime until your next t-test?
That way you can compare your numbers while keeping your variables the same. If you see your t-levels lowered still, you know that your current regime is really really working. If you see your t-levels remain the same, then you will know for sure that your current regime needs some tweaking. It just seems that if you change your regime now, you cannot be sure if growth/lack of growth would be due to any potential additions.

[GoneGirl]

Clara,

Congratulations on reducing your total T levels that low. That's amazing. Having a concrete number as a baseline duly fantastic. I'm no expert, but wouldn't it make sense to continue with your regime until your next t-test?
That way you can compare your numbers while keeping your variables the same. If you see your t-levels lowered still, you know that your current regime is really really working. If you see your t-levels remain the same, then you will know for sure that your current regime needs some tweaking. It just seems that if you change your regime now, you cannot be sure if growth/lack of growth would be due to any potential additions.

You make a lot of sense, Eloise. Thanks for the suggestion.

Clara

[MissC]

For me it seems White Peony and Reishi have the most complete AA functions for NBE, I try to stay away from anything that counters estrogenic actions.

Very interesting, this line of inquiry. I have used saw palmetto in the past, off and on with a previous herbal regimen (red clover, fenugreek, licorice, kudzu; rotated every so often). I have not used the saw palmetto since starting pueraria mirifica, however... and I have to say that I've had no faster and greater effect than PM alone. Heck, give me the PM, and you can throw everything else away.

That said, I'm now keen to try this white peony. If it can knock down DHT without the backward step of reducing estrogen, then I should have some good results to report.

Are you aware of any retailers that carry it? I do have all the hippy stores around -- Whole Paycheck, Vitamin Cottage, etc.

[Lotus]

For me it seems White Peony and Reishi have the most complete AA functions for NBE, I try to stay away from anything that counters estrogenic actions.

Very interesting, this line of inquiry. I have used saw palmetto in the past, off and on with a previous herbal regimen (red clover, fenugreek, licorice, kudzu; rotated every so often). I have not used the saw palmetto since starting pueraria mirifica, however... and I have to say that I've had no faster and greater effect than PM alone. Heck, give me the PM, and you can throw everything else away.

That said, I'm now keen to try this white peony. If it can knock down DHT without the backward step of reducing estrogen, then I should have some good results to report.

Are you aware of any retailers that carry it? I do have all the hippy stores around -- Whole Paycheck, Vitamin Cottage, etc.

Swansons carries it in a tea, which I've been trying (not bad), which is ok for now until I run the Rieshi out. I haven't tried the site or supplier below yet, but Samantha has been using WP, but I'm not sure where from. I've had luck in getting products from my local mom and pop health food store, they'd also order for me if they didn't have what I wanted. I had a hard time sourcing it, that's why I went with Rieshi, which is a close second, imo.

Good luck,

It's called Bai Shao in Traditional Chinese Medicine.

http://www.chineseherbsdirect.com/product_info.php?products_id=995&gclid=CPW8tI-g27sCFWMV7Aod4mkApw