[MissC]

Could this explain why there are fewer FTMs than MTFs out there?

Clara

I have a few theories I'll float....

I think women are less prone to contests of penis-waving. So a woman who tends to the masculine gender wouldn't so much feel a need to be better at it than either her fellow FTMs or genetic males, thus, less worry about "going all the way".

Men (and here I refer to humans born male) on the other hand tend to make contests out of everything, including games of one-upmanship to no longer be men. Ironic, isn't it? Seriously. Men will make a penis-waving frat-boy contest out of being feminine. (Yeah, I'm guilty too, but my participation stops well short of surgery, just past makeup...!)

This behavior may explain the attitudes on other forums against NBE, and the trannier-than-thou nonsense. We've all seen it. Weekend crossdressers are expected to worship at the altar of SRS and Big Pharma when it's the very last thing they want for themselves.

Secondarily, I believe, there is no expectation whatsoever on the part of the FTM crowd that they could have, for a week in Thailand, functional male sex organs. That perception exists among the MTF crowd, though, so there's a "finish line" for that contest.

Third, women are, perhaps by nature, less interested in more permanent body modifications (like tattoos and such). I don't have data on this, unfortunately; it's my observation. (Yes, many FTMs opt for breast removal [], but I think we give that about the same weight as augmentation -- i.e. cosmetic.)

And last but not least, the theory we're all familiar with already, women in Western societies can simply get away with more gender-bending than men, thus obviating the need/want for more serious personal modification.

[Lenneth]

Could this explain why there are fewer FTMs than MTFs out there?

Clara

I have a few theories I'll float....

I think women are less prone to contests of penis-waving. So a woman who tends to the masculine gender wouldn't so much feel a need to be better at it than either her fellow FTMs or genetic males, thus, less worry about "going all the way".

Men (and here I refer to humans born male) on the other hand tend to make contests out of everything, including games of one-upmanship to no longer be men. Ironic, isn't it? Seriously. Men will make a penis-waving frat-boy contest out of being feminine. (Yeah, I'm guilty too, but my participation stops well short of surgery, just past makeup...!)

This behavior may explain the attitudes on other forums against NBE, and the trannier-than-thou nonsense. We've all seen it. Weekend crossdressers are expected to worship at the altar of SRS and Big Pharma when it's the very last thing they want for themselves.

hm, you might be onto something with that, with quite a few it does seem like a competition etc....

IMHO the ones like that likely do not & have never had GD.
an example I have seen is some that have said openly things like "I have to constantly try real hard to act Feminine" that to me says they wouldn't have a clue what GD was if it bit them...

Secondarily, I believe, there is no expectation whatsoever on the part of the FTM crowd that they could have, for a week in Thailand, functional male sex organs. That perception exists among the MTF crowd, though, so there's a "finish line" for that contest.

Dunno if I would call either form of SRS "Functional Sex Organs" (No Offence/direspect intended) to me that would include them functioning fully.
(a pet peeve of mine)

Third, women are, perhaps by nature, less interested in more permanent body modifications (like tattoos and such). I don't have data on this, unfortunately; it's my observation. (Yes, many FTMs opt for breast removal [], but I think we give that about the same weight as augmentation -- i.e. cosmetic.)

*cough* Body Piercings etc....

And last but not least, the theory we're all familiar with already, women in Western societies can simply get away with more gender-bending than men, thus obviating the need/want for more serious personal modification.

My thoughts as well to an extent, Biological Females can gender bend all they want without so much as a odd glance, yet if a Biological Male does anything that might be viewed even slightly as being feminine in behavior or dress etc they are practically burnt at the stake for it by "both" Men & Women.
(This has Always Irritated me)

[flamesabers]

Flame, dear, you don't strike me as one who suffers even an ounce of dysphoria concerning your gender identity.

Clara, I find this to be a rather insightful statement. Does this mean I should steer clear of the GD chatroom Lenneth has setup?

Could you expand more on this? I'm curious to hear if your line of thinking on this is similar to mine.

Do you mean that I'm satisfied with my gender identity and I'm otherwise not conflicted that it falls outside the prescribed norms for my biological sex? In other words, I don't feel compelled to try to align myself with one gender or the other? Or are you making this observation based more on my goals? For example, while I'm pursuing NBE and have lasered my facial hair, I have no plans with transitioning and I'm okay with that. Even though I would be fine with the hypothetical scenario of waking up as a girl tomorrow, the fact that this is limited the realm of fantasy doesn't eat me up inside.

Is it possible I'm reading more into this statement than what you originally intended?

As far as whether those who seek therapy are pushing into transitioning it's hard to say. I have no personal experience with getting medical professions involved with the transgender aspect of myself. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it's the individuals who feel the need to undergo transitioning to justify or make sense of their feelings, rather than the doctors pressuring their patients? Maybe those who have engaged in gender therapy could comment on this?

And, I know, Flame, that you have a mind that enjoys that kind of discourse, as well, don't you? I know I always enjoy your intelligent comments.

And I am glad you like my name, Flame, though I have never seen Stargate...is it worth watching?

Hugs

Samantha,

Yes, I enjoy participating in the hypothetical discourse.

In regards to watching Stargate, do you like sci-fi shows? The show bears some semblance to Star Trek (a group of humans explore other worlds, making allies and enemies in the process). Perhaps the most obvious differences are the show takes place in modern times and instead of using starships, the human explorers uses a Stargate to travel to other worlds.

While perhaps the plotline is very common among Sci-Fi shows, I think the characters, particularly Samantha helps make the show more unique. She's an Air Force officer and an astrophysicist. While she does have a strong and independent side, she's also very caring and nurturing. She cares deeply for her friend's stepdaughter, and in a number of episodes she bonds with the children from other worlds, especially the ones that share her passion for science and learning.

Could this explain why there are fewer FTMs than MTFs out there?

I'm not sure if there are really fewer FTMs than MTFs. For instance, you may have heard that women are twice as likely as men to be depressed. Is that accurate, or is it just that women are more likely to seek treatment and be diagnosed with depression? To make matters more complicated, men and women frequently exhibit and complain about different symptoms of depression.

It may just be that fewer gg are diagnosed by doctors than bio-males in regards to being a transsexual for whatever reason. Or maybe it's because MTFs are more probable because of the setup of fetal brain development in the womb? I suspect the disparity between the number of identified FTMs and MTFs is a complex issue and goes beyond the differences in cost of male and female HRT.

Miss C,

A penis waving contest amongst bio-males to be feminine?

Intellectually, I can understand your point. Emotionally though, I'm absolutely baffled by such a notion.

I would like to mention though that competing on petty or even health-threatening matters in order to be ultra-feminine is not limited to the male sex. As with depression, women may just have a very different way of expressing this type of behavior. For example, it's not unheard of for females anorexics to compete to see who can lose the most weight. Also, some soon-to-be brides may choose to go on insane crash diets just to be able to wear a super small wedding dress for their big day. Another is women choosing to get botox injections to make themselves look younger. Ultimately, my point is that unfavorable traits like vanity, jealousy and insecurity can be observed in both males and females, for whatever reason.

Lenneth,

I partially agree that women have more freedom engaging in cross-gender behavior. While this is typically true in everyday clothing and appearance, I don't think it's quite the case in other areas. While FTMs may not struggle with the same obstacles as MTFs, I think the former still has significant challenges to content with. For instance, I think men have more latitude with choosing whether to get married and have kids or stay single than women do. In other words, I think an older woman who never married and doesn't have kids is more likely to get odd glances than an older man is. Women who deviate from this norm may be called unfavorable terms like 'spinster,' 'old maid,' or 'crazy cat lady.' In contrast, I haven't heard of any similar terms for men of the same status.

Also consider the dress code for formal events like weddings. Who do you think is likely to get more flak? The groom who wants to wear plain clothes instead of a tux? Or the bride who wants to wear something other than a frilly and unwieldy wedding dress? I find it's not shunned or even expected for a guy to prefer to dress low-key for formal events. A guy's masculinity will not be called into question for not wanting to wear a tux. He might be called a slob or lazy, but it's not unusual for guys to be like this. A lot of guys aren't big on fashion and clothes. In contrast, I think females are much more expected to dress up pretty, otherwise their femininity might be questioned by others.

Is it just me or am I typically the lone dissenter who brings up the point that women don't always have it easier when it comes to gender-bending or that women can be just as flawed and problematic as men can be?

Whew! It's feels like I just wrote an essay!

[Wuerstchen]

I didn't want them--Mother Nature gave them to me. But late in life I realized they were a gift, and I love them. Happily, whether through age-related hormonal changes or as a result of regular stimulation of my breasts and nipples, my breasts have grown larger, and I delighted with that. I am truly blessed (check out my pictures) that I have grown a nice pair of breasts (only slightly smaller than my wife's) without any intervention. That they are erotically sensitive is the icing on the cake.

[Wuerstchen]

I think the answer to the thread question provides a clue as how much cross gender identity one possesses, and whether engaging in NBE is likely to be something worthwhile and beneficial in the long term.

I grew up with four sisters, so breasts and bras were a common sight in our house. I remember putting a bra on as a young boy, but I don't recall actually wishing I had breasts. I had only a vague notion of what a breast was until I reached puberty.

When puberty arrived, I recall locking myself in the bathroom with the Sears & Roebuck catalog and going directly to the women's underwear pages to look at the pictures. I also liked to peruse the pages of Seventeen magazine at the city library looking at the intoxicating images of girls and how they adorned their curvy bodies. I still had no conscious wish to have breasts during my adolescent years, although a friend and I experimented with putting oranges in a bra to see how having breasts might look and feel. Not very well, we concluded.

It wasn't until after I was married, in my twenties that I discovered a book at the local bookstore about a man who grew breasts. Just the idea of that possibility sent a rush of excitement racing through my body. I was shocked by my reaction. I wanted to open the book, but was too self-conscious with other people around, so I walked away. For days, I couldn't get the book out of my mind. Finally, while again visiting the bookstore, I worked up the courage to open the book and read some of the material. It recounted the story of a man who had inadvertently come into contact with his wife's estrogen medicine, and over time, developed breasts. From that day on, I concocted fantasies about growing breasts myself. The urge to pursue it in reality was never seriously considered until last year when I experienced a relapse into crossdressing, and eventually found my way here.

Now that I have the beginnings of my own real breasts, I wake up in the morning, touch them, and know that my longstanding dream has finally come true, and I am so glad.

Clara

Just read this. A nice story Clara Kay, nicely told.

[GoneGirl]

I think the answer to the thread question provides a clue as how much cross gender identity one possesses, and whether engaging in NBE is likely to be something worthwhile and beneficial in the long term.

I grew up with four sisters, so breasts and bras were a common sight in our house. I remember putting a bra on as a young boy, but I don't recall actually wishing I had breasts. I had only a vague notion of what a breast was until I reached puberty.

When puberty arrived, I recall locking myself in the bathroom with the Sears & Roebuck catalog and going directly to the women's underwear pages to look at the pictures. I also liked to peruse the pages of Seventeen magazine at the city library looking at the intoxicating images of girls and how they adorned their curvy bodies. I still had no conscious wish to have breasts during my adolescent years, although a friend and I experimented with putting oranges in a bra to see how having breasts might look and feel. Not very well, we concluded.

It wasn't until after I was married, in my twenties that I discovered a book at the local bookstore about a man who grew breasts. Just the idea of that possibility sent a rush of excitement racing through my body. I was shocked by my reaction. I wanted to open the book, but was too self-conscious with other people around, so I walked away. For days, I couldn't get the book out of my mind. Finally, while again visiting the bookstore, I worked up the courage to open the book and read some of the material. It recounted the story of a man who had inadvertently come into contact with his wife's estrogen medicine, and over time, developed breasts. From that day on, I concocted fantasies about growing breasts myself. The urge to pursue it in reality was never seriously considered until last year when I experienced a relapse into crossdressing, and eventually found my way here.

Now that I have the beginnings of my own real breasts, I wake up in the morning, touch them, and know that my longstanding dream has finally come true, and I am so glad.

Clara

Just read this. A nice story Clara Kay, nicely told.

Thank you, MW. It's very interesting how our common interest -- the reason we all came to BN -- had its beginnings in so many different ways and in different stages of life. It's also interesting how differently we value our breasts as an expression of who we are as people. Some of us see our breasts as an expression of our femininity. Others value breasts for their own sake.

Earlier in my life, beasts only played a role in my fantasies. They existed only in my mind; they did not affect real life. Now, after nearly 5 months of NBE, I have small breasts that are with me day and night. They show through my clothing at times. I feel I must hide them from the world even though I'm happy, even proud to have them.

As my breasts develop, they are also exposing the female side of my psyche. They make it impossible to deny that part of my gender identity that I once suppressed so well. Assuming my breasts continue to grow and become impossible to hide from the world, I suspect that my gender identity will also become impossible to hide from the world. When that happens, will there be any reason to carry on the charade of living the male gender role, if that what it is? Is this the so called 'pink fog', the 'slippery slope' that we are warned about?

Clara

[Wuerstchen]

I think the answer to the thread question provides a clue as how much cross gender identity one possesses, and whether engaging in NBE is likely to be something worthwhile and beneficial in the long term.

I grew up with four sisters, so breasts and bras were a common sight in our house. I remember putting a bra on as a young boy, but I don't recall actually wishing I had breasts. I had only a vague notion of what a breast was until I reached puberty.

When puberty arrived, I recall locking myself in the bathroom with the Sears & Roebuck catalog and going directly to the women's underwear pages to look at the pictures. I also liked to peruse the pages of Seventeen magazine at the city library looking at the intoxicating images of girls and how they adorned their curvy bodies. I still had no conscious wish to have breasts during my adolescent years, although a friend and I experimented with putting oranges in a bra to see how having breasts might look and feel. Not very well, we concluded.

It wasn't until after I was married, in my twenties that I discovered a book at the local bookstore about a man who grew breasts. Just the idea of that possibility sent a rush of excitement racing through my body. I was shocked by my reaction. I wanted to open the book, but was too self-conscious with other people around, so I walked away. For days, I couldn't get the book out of my mind. Finally, while again visiting the bookstore, I worked up the courage to open the book and read some of the material. It recounted the story of a man who had inadvertently come into contact with his wife's estrogen medicine, and over time, developed breasts. From that day on, I concocted fantasies about growing breasts myself. The urge to pursue it in reality was never seriously considered until last year when I experienced a relapse into crossdressing, and eventually found my way here.

Now that I have the beginnings of my own real breasts, I wake up in the morning, touch them, and know that my longstanding dream has finally come true, and I am so glad.

Clara

Just read this. A nice story Clara Kay, nicely told.

Thank you, MW. It's very interesting how our common interest -- the reason we all came to BN -- had its beginnings in so many different ways and in different stages of life. It's also interesting how differently we value our breasts as an expression of who we are as people. Some of us see our breasts as an expression of our femininity. Others value breasts for their own sake.

Earlier in my life, beasts only played a role in my fantasies. They existed only in my mind; they did not affect real life. Now, after nearly 5 months of NBE, I have small breasts that are with me day and night. They show through my clothing at times. I feel I must hide them from the world even though I'm happy, even proud to have them.

As my breasts develop, they are also exposing the female side of my psyche. They make it impossible to deny that part of my gender identity that I once suppressed so well. Assuming my breasts continue to grow and become impossible to hide from the world, I suspect that my gender identity will also become impossible to hide from the world. When that happens, will there be any reason to carry on the charade of living the male gender role, if that what it is? Is this the so called 'pink fog', the 'slippery slope' that we are warned about?

Clara

As someone who relishes his own breasts, I can imagine your excitement, CK, in developing your own.

You are right, we are different. I wonder if there is anyone else in this forum like me--that is, someone who completely identifies as male, but was endowed by nature with breasts (a.k.a. gynecomastia) and is thrilled to have them.

Although I feel securely male, my breasts are the center of my sexuality, and nipple orgasm is my nearly exclusive form of sexual pleasure.

[GoneGirl]

I can't imagine there wouldn't be other men who love having breasts. The spectrum is wide and the diversity of nature is epic. Maybe an opportunity for a poll?

Clara

[geek]

To answer the tread topic question, when did I first realize I wanted breast, I would say about the same time I realized I wanted to be female... so about age 10. Granted I didn't think I wanted breasts, as "boobs" were part of the "girl package" so to speak, but I did know that I wanted to be a girl. I never told my parents, or anyone else for that matter, about my desire to be female. I suppose it was hinted at a few times though such as when my mother found my cd-ing stash or when I asked her if I could have a "sweet 16" party.

Back to the question, I would have to say it was in the lat couple years, so mid to late 20's.

[GoneGirl]

To answer the tread topic question, when did I first realize I wanted breast, I would say about the same time I realized I wanted to be female... so about age 10. Granted I didn't think I wanted breasts, as "boobs" were part of the "girl package" so to speak, but I did know that I wanted to be a girl. I never told my parents, or anyone else for that matter, about my desire to be female. I suppose it was hinted at a few times though such as when my mother found my cd-ing stash or when I asked her if I could have a "sweet 16" party.

Back to the question, I would have to say it was in the lat couple years, so mid to late 20's.

That's interesting, Geek, your desire was to be a girl first and then to have breasts. I think my fantasies were centered around having breasts with being female a secondary desire. That may have been a consequence of my subconscious attempts to deny my female side.

You're rather young yet, Geek, where do you see yourself being i 5 years (as to your gender role)?

Clara