I am stiil not sure I understand it all despite your amazing efforts Lotus, for which I have to give you huge thanks.

The thing that was crossing my mind today is that as I understand it, the male endocrine system will attempt to redress any perceived imbalance to ones normal baseline male level ie it attempts to keep the E and T levels at a balance which, whilst uniquely individual, is pretty clear cut for producing male/female characteristics.


If we start to flood the system with PM or any other phytoestrogen, will not the body automatically attempt to balance this perceived inequality by conversion of E ( maybe) to T, or might it actually stimulate T production using similar reasoning Now being that we are actually talking phytoestrogens as opposed to 'the real things', might we not actually be lowering our natural E base?.

I ask this because after some months of PM interspersed with one or two week FG breaks, I have actually found male libido has far from diminished - it has shot through the roof and as I said somewhere else, I am not certain but am beginning to wonder if it is causing hair thinning (hence the spearmint thread).


I probably am making completely wrong assumptions here or am showing a total lack of understanding - but it does have a sort of logic ... well perhaps.


Once again, thanks for all your invaluable contributions -I just wish I could get my head around it all!!!

M x


Edited cos of spolling miostooks!!!!

I am stiil not sure I understand it all despite your amazing efforts Lotus, for which I have to give you huge thanks.

The thing that was crossing my mind today is that as I understand it, the male endocrine system will attempt to redress any perceived imbalance to ones normal baseline male level ie it attempts to keep the E and T levels at a balance which, whilst unique idivually, is pretty clear cut for producing ,ale/female characteristics.


If we start to flood the system with PM or any other phytoestrogen, will not the body automatically attempt to balance this perceived inequality by conversion of E ( maybe) to T, or might it actually stimulate T production using similar reasoning Now being that we are actually talking phytoestrogens as opposed to 'the real things', might we not actually be lowering our natural E base?.

I ask this because after some months of PM interspersed with one or two week FG breaks, I have actually found male libido has far from diminished - it has shot through the roof and as I said somewhere else, I am not certain but am beginning to wonder if it is causing hair thinning (hence the spearmint thread btw).


I probably am making completely wrong assumptions here or am showing a total lack of understanding - but it does have a sort of logic ... well perhaps.


Once again, thanks for all your invaluable contributions -I just wish I could get my head around it all!!!

M x

Hey there M,

The endocrine system is truly a fascinating piece of precision (like a big double layer cake) lol, and your metabolism is the icing on the cake. Sorry that's the foodie in me talking. The idea of causing the cascade wasn't mine, but from our dear Abi, which I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm a stalker from when I saw she was on the forum last and pm'd her (I don't mind her thinking that).

Anyways from the cascade came the other ideas of making it more effective, and a bit of trail and error (i.e. Experimenting) you end up learning the hard way about those experiments.

For instance, why does E cause Atrophy/ED?, like I posted earlier, E is tricking the brain and androgen receptors to think enough is produced, thereby shutting the production of T down. Androgen receptors are in the penis and at which point not getting the signal from mr. T and causing the atrophy. (Sorry no pun)


Let me post this before I get booted again, (happens)

Anyways, the thought occurred about Free T, what if we didn't take AA's to shut down T production?. Body builders have been using the principals of manipulation forever right?. So why can't we use that just in reverse at bit?.

If you use the T in your body and try to manipulate it through Aromatase what's the worst could happen?

Remember the first post of the thread this statement:


Men produce 3mg to 10mg of T per day, and of that 4% gets converted to DHT and .02% gets converted to estrogen, (estradiol E2)


The prostate converts 95% of T to DHT by 5 alpha reductase, ( 5ar).


.02% of E is converted by the enzyme aromatase, this small percentage can be misleading, estradiol is 100 more potent at the receptor sites then T, that means T needs to balance at the same level to have the same affinity.



Although naturally-occurring estrogens circulate in the blood largely bound to sex hormone-binding globulin and albumin, only unbound estrogens enter target tissue cells.

The statement from above is explaining Free E, exactly the same principle as FREE T, and the target tissues are E-receptors.


Below is what I'm talking about if anybody would like some supported info:

Testosterone-derived estradiol production by male endothelium is robust and dependent on p450 aromatase via estrogen receptor alpha.
http://www.springerplus.com/content/2/1/214

Remember in the first post of the thread this statement:


Men produce 3mg to 10mg of T per day, and of that 4% gets converted to DHT and .02% gets converted to estrogen, (estradiol E2)


The prostate converts 95% of T to DHT by 5 alpha reductase, ( 5ar).


.02% of E is converted by the enzyme aromatase, this small percentage can be misleading, estradiol is 100 more potent at the receptor sites then T, that means T needs to balance at the same level to have the same affinity.



Although naturally-occurring estrogens circulate in the blood largely bound to sex hormone-binding globulin and albumin, only unbound estrogens enter target tissue cells. This statement is explaining Free E, exactly the same principle as FREE T and that also means E-receptors.

Below is what I'm talking about if anybody would like some supported info:

Testosterone-derived estradiol production by male endothelium is robust and dependent on p450 aromatase via estrogen receptor alpha.
http://www.springerplus.com/content/2/1/214

Let me throw a spanner in the works .
Since it is the pituitary gland that sends signals for production of various hormones and also signals for balancing any unbalances .

I was watching a health program where this guy's breast ( albeit small ) was producing milk , he was diagnosed by the doctor pituitary gland malfunction for which this guy had treatment .

So here is me thinking maybe we at NBE could look at manipulating the pituitary gland . As by doing that you are tackling the source rather than end product.

Is my logic correct ?

Remember in the first post of the thread this statement:


Men produce 3mg to 10mg of T per day, and of that 4% gets converted to DHT and .02% gets converted to estrogen, (estradiol E2)


The prostate converts 95% of T to DHT by 5 alpha reductase, ( 5ar).


.02% of E is converted by the enzyme aromatase, this small percentage can be misleading, estradiol is 100 more potent at the receptor sites then T, that means T needs to balance at the same level to have the same affinity.



Although naturally-occurring estrogens circulate in the blood largely bound to sex hormone-binding globulin and albumin, only unbound estrogens enter target tissue cells. This statement is explaining Free E, exactly the same principle as FREE T and that also means E-receptors.

Below is what I'm talking about if anybody would like some supported info:

Testosterone-derived estradiol production by male endothelium is robust and dependent on p450 aromatase via estrogen receptor alpha.
http://www.springerplus.com/content/2/1/214

Let me throw a spanner in the works .
Since it is the pituitary gland that sends signals for production of various hormones and also signals for balancing any unbalances .

I was watching a health program where this guy's breast ( albeit small ) was producing milk , he was diagnosed by the doctor pituitary gland malfunction for which this guy had treatment .

So here is me thinking maybe we at NBE could look at manipulating the pituitary gland . As by doing that you are tackling the source rather than end product.

Is my logic correct ?

Well yes ,

Your logic is correct and assuming that the pituitary regulates homeostasis (control) over the endocrine, it's the master gland.

But that condition is called prolactinoma-its a benign tumor of the pituitary gland that produces a hormone called prolactin. It is the most common type of pituitary tumor. Symptoms of prolactinoma are caused by too much prolactin in the blood (hyperprolactinemia) or by pressure of the tumor on surrounding tissues.

The improper hormonal balance, or thyroiditis is big problems for NBE'ers, also cortisol in older bio-males has a great affect in the whole enzymatic (Aromatase) response if that's what you meant.

Anyways, the thought occurred about Free T, what if we didn't take AA's to shut down T production?. Body builders have been using the principals of manipulation forever right?. So why can't we use that just in reverse at bit?.

If you use the T in your body and try to manipulate it through Aromatase what's the worst could happen?

Lotus you are so far ahead of me at this, I can see your logic I think, maybe

Me Im a bit younger (45) and in better shape than Ive been in years... Ive ramped up the PM to 3500-4000 MG and I still get weak morning wood occaisonally, it works FINE right now BUT Im also seeing other very pleasant to me side effects from the PM... You know SOFT skin, thinner slower growing body hair, BOOBS starting to grow, loss of any kind of "male scent" ect.....

Why wouldnt I want an AA to try to make this work better again???

I get aromatase of FREE T to E I think

Strange thing happened to me when I first started this journey.... My GF is going through menopause and she drinks soy milk and takes Estroven over the counter pills, (black cohosh and soy mostly I think) anyway I started with huge soy intake and her pills and it was like WTF??? I started getting hairier and my guy was working like I was 22 LOL

So the PM, spearmint caps, chinese skullcap caps, and occasional licorice cap has definitely done what Im looking for so far....

Id love it if you could elaborate on this concept, thanks

Anyways, the thought occurred about Free T, what if we didn't take AA's to shut down T production?. Body builders have been using the principals of manipulation forever right?. So why can't we use that just in reverse at bit?.

If you use the T in your body and try to manipulate it through Aromatase what's the worst could happen?

Lotus you are so far ahead of me at this, I can see your logic I think, maybe

Me Im a bit younger (45) and in better shape than Ive been in years... Ive ramped up the PM to 3500-4000 MG and I still get weak morning wood occaisonally, it works FINE right now BUT Im also seeing other very pleasant to me side effects from the PM... You know SOFT skin, thinner slower growing body hair, BOOBS starting to grow, loss of any kind of "male scent" ect.....

Why wouldnt I want an AA to try to make this work better again???

I get aromatase of FREE T to E I think

Strange thing happened to me when I first started this journey.... My GF is going through menopause and she drinks soy milk and takes Estroven over the counter pills, (black cohosh and soy mostly I think) anyway I started with huge soy intake and her pills and it was like WTF??? I started getting hairier and my guy was working like I was 22 LOL

So the PM, spearmint caps, chinese skullcap caps, and occasional licorice cap has definitely done what Im looking for so far....

Id love it if you could elaborate on this concept, thanks

You're talking about just using your circulating T right?. I remember reading about an approach of an endo for his mtf patient, his theory was to keep hormones entirely on the female end. And while that made obvious sense the thought occurred about using our existing T (or Free T) just to convert to E. And hey why not?, it's already going on in the first place right?. It's that small .02% being produced, why not more, are you with me so far?

Anyways, the thought occurred about Free T, what if we didn't take AA's to shut down T production?. Body builders have been using the principals of manipulation forever right?. So why can't we use that just in reverse at bit?.

If you use the T in your body and try to manipulate it through Aromatase what's the worst could happen?

Lotus you are so far ahead of me at this, I can see your logic I think, maybe

Me Im a bit younger (45) and in better shape than Ive been in years... Ive ramped up the PM to 3500-4000 MG and I still get weak morning wood occaisonally, it works FINE right now BUT Im also seeing other very pleasant to me side effects from the PM... You know SOFT skin, thinner slower growing body hair, BOOBS starting to grow, loss of any kind of "male scent" ect.....

Why wouldnt I want an AA to try to make this work better again???

I get aromatase of FREE T to E I think

Strange thing happened to me when I first started this journey.... My GF is going through menopause and she drinks soy milk and takes Estroven over the counter pills, (black cohosh and soy mostly I think) anyway I started with huge soy intake and her pills and it was like WTF??? I started getting hairier and my guy was working like I was 22 LOL

So the PM, spearmint caps, chinese skullcap caps, and occasional licorice cap has definitely done what Im looking for so far....

Id love it if you could elaborate on this concept, thanks

You're talking about just using your circulating T right?. I remember reading about an approach of an endo for his mtf patient, his theory was to keep hormones entirely on the female end. And while that made obvious sense the thought occurred about using our existing T (or Free T) just to convert to E. And hey why not?, it's already going on in the first place right?. It's that small .02% being produced, why not more, are you with me so far?

Ok, if I could make this statement my signature I would, it's like it's yelling out for attention.


Men produce 3mg to 10mg of T per day, and of that 4% gets converted to DHT and .02% gets converted to estrogen, (estradiol E2)

The prostate converts 95% of T to DHT by 5 alpha reductase, ( 5ar).

.02% of E is converted by the enzyme aromatase, this small percentage can be misleading, estradiol is 100 more potent at the receptor sites then T, that means T needs to balance at the same level to have the same affinity.

Please somebody help me out here!

Anyways, the thought occurred about Free T, what if we didn't take AA's to shut down T production?. Body builders have been using the principals of manipulation forever right?. So why can't we use that just in reverse at bit?.

If you use the T in your body and try to manipulate it through Aromatase what's the worst could happen?

Lotus you are so far ahead of me at this, I can see your logic I think, maybe

Me Im a bit younger (45) and in better shape than Ive been in years... Ive ramped up the PM to 3500-4000 MG and I still get weak morning wood occaisonally, it works FINE right now BUT Im also seeing other very pleasant to me side effects from the PM... You know SOFT skin, thinner slower growing body hair, BOOBS starting to grow, loss of any kind of "male scent" ect.....

Why wouldnt I want an AA to try to make this work better again???

I get aromatase of FREE T to E I think

Strange thing happened to me when I first started this journey.... My GF is going through menopause and she drinks soy milk and takes Estroven over the counter pills, (black cohosh and soy mostly I think) anyway I started with huge soy intake and her pills and it was like WTF??? I started getting hairier and my guy was working like I was 22 LOL

So the PM, spearmint caps, chinese skullcap caps, and occasional licorice cap has definitely done what Im looking for so far....

Id love it if you could elaborate on this concept, thanks

You're talking about just using your circulating T right?. I remember reading about an approach of an endo for his mtf patient, his theory was to keep hormones entirely on the female end. And while that made obvious sense the thought occurred about using our existing T (or Free T) just to convert to E. And hey why not?, it's already going on in the first place right?. It's that small .02% being produced, why not more, are you with me so far?

I hear you there but the question that remains to be answered for me anyway is HOW???

HOW do we use this extra T???

Myboobs made a good point about the pituitary overseeing all these games and tricks we try to pull on it...

All I know is if a M wants to go F through the official channels Miss MTF gets Spiro or whatever they give girls in Europe with E and that DOES work....

IM NOT questioning your results at all, in fact Im in AWE, just trying to get in a good spot with NBE....