02-04-2014, 05:49 PM
Thats where I am leaning, sis. And today I have not taken any herbs at all. Just thought I would get a few other viewpoints...adds to the discussion...
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02-04-2014, 08:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2014, 08:05 PM by SarahSchilling.)
You don't need other viewpoints! LOL, jk.
I only responded because no one else had and hoped maybe my post would draw some other responses.
I only responded because no one else had and hoped maybe my post would draw some other responses.
02-04-2014, 08:14 PM
I agree with Sarah: it's your call; but I'd probably drop the PM, and see what happens to the T level. I'm guessing that you'll still have room to supplement the T, given where you are now. 
02-04-2014, 08:22 PM
(02-04-2014, 05:49 PM)Samantha Rogers Wrote: Thats where I am leaning, sis. And today I have not taken any herbs at all. Just thought I would get a few other viewpoints...adds to the discussion...
Late to the party as usual but my .02 cents, the almost negative value T is astonishing to say the least. You have to think that even through NBE you lowered total T to female levels is just proof positve it has an impact. So congrats Sammie you succeeded in your goal, and just think 2-3 months you thought you were stalled.
Where to go from here is an easy choice considering everything you've invested, and we're not talking financially.
Hugs!
02-04-2014, 10:35 PM
Hi, Sammie
A couple of thoughts.
One thing that I have always wondered about is what the word 'natural' means in the context of breast growth for genetic males. Many people would take the view that such growth is fundamentally unnatural (although the existence of gynecomastia would seem to indicate otherwise) I personally see nothing unnatural about choosing to benefit from and induce or encourage a naturally occurring condition. The next issue is the means used. It seems to me that many of us take the view that using not only herbs but anything available without prescription is fair game, including a wide range of supplements many of which are clearly synthesized even if they correspond to compounds found in nature. An interesting example is bio-identical progesterone cream, whose use is widely suggested, but the P in which is synthesized. It is available OTC in the USA, but by prescription only in many other jurisdictions. Is it natural in the US but not elsewhere?
Which brings us to E2. E2 is a human hormone naturally occurring in both males and females, and synthetic E2 has just as much entitlement to be considered 'bio-identical' as does synthetic progesterone. So why should we not use it as a 'natural' growth aid if it is available to us?
On the other hand, one could argue that Premarin is clearly a natural source product. But it is not bio-identical with human hormones, so is its use 'natural'? The same objection could be raised to bovine ovary and its ilk. Certainly there are a number of synthetic hormones such as DES and synthetic progestins other than progesterone itself which cannot possibly be considered natural and many of which are problematic.
My second thought is that I don't think that we should regard PM and E2 as alternatives. PM like most herbs is a complex blend of different active constituents. The phytoestrogens in PM are not equivalent to E2,, and it is not clear to me that E2, although within its scope of activity more powerful, can provide the range of benefits that can be provided by the range of active components (not just phytoestrogens) present in PM. Indeed it is possible that E2 and PM could act to complement each other with the PM providing some protection against the known hazards of significant quantities of E2.
Mind you, if I was offered an E2 prescription I might well grab it.
Your very low level of T at the moment does appear to be below that generally considered healthy, but reading the literature about low T in genetic males, there are all sorts of dire warnings about adverse physiacal and metal effects which in you and I at least seem unsubstantiated, so who knows? I wish I knew my own T level. I'm still trying to extract the results of the blood tests I managed to persuade the NP to order and have an appointment with her on Monday. I am interested that your endo said, Iif I understood you correctly, that loss of male function is usually reversible - I was certainly under the impression that mine had gone for good.
Hugs from Annie
A couple of thoughts.
One thing that I have always wondered about is what the word 'natural' means in the context of breast growth for genetic males. Many people would take the view that such growth is fundamentally unnatural (although the existence of gynecomastia would seem to indicate otherwise) I personally see nothing unnatural about choosing to benefit from and induce or encourage a naturally occurring condition. The next issue is the means used. It seems to me that many of us take the view that using not only herbs but anything available without prescription is fair game, including a wide range of supplements many of which are clearly synthesized even if they correspond to compounds found in nature. An interesting example is bio-identical progesterone cream, whose use is widely suggested, but the P in which is synthesized. It is available OTC in the USA, but by prescription only in many other jurisdictions. Is it natural in the US but not elsewhere?
Which brings us to E2. E2 is a human hormone naturally occurring in both males and females, and synthetic E2 has just as much entitlement to be considered 'bio-identical' as does synthetic progesterone. So why should we not use it as a 'natural' growth aid if it is available to us?
On the other hand, one could argue that Premarin is clearly a natural source product. But it is not bio-identical with human hormones, so is its use 'natural'? The same objection could be raised to bovine ovary and its ilk. Certainly there are a number of synthetic hormones such as DES and synthetic progestins other than progesterone itself which cannot possibly be considered natural and many of which are problematic.
My second thought is that I don't think that we should regard PM and E2 as alternatives. PM like most herbs is a complex blend of different active constituents. The phytoestrogens in PM are not equivalent to E2,, and it is not clear to me that E2, although within its scope of activity more powerful, can provide the range of benefits that can be provided by the range of active components (not just phytoestrogens) present in PM. Indeed it is possible that E2 and PM could act to complement each other with the PM providing some protection against the known hazards of significant quantities of E2.
Mind you, if I was offered an E2 prescription I might well grab it.
Your very low level of T at the moment does appear to be below that generally considered healthy, but reading the literature about low T in genetic males, there are all sorts of dire warnings about adverse physiacal and metal effects which in you and I at least seem unsubstantiated, so who knows? I wish I knew my own T level. I'm still trying to extract the results of the blood tests I managed to persuade the NP to order and have an appointment with her on Monday. I am interested that your endo said, Iif I understood you correctly, that loss of male function is usually reversible - I was certainly under the impression that mine had gone for good.
Hugs from Annie
03-04-2014, 02:27 AM
An interesting series of thoughts, Annie.
I suppose, risking branding on this board as a heretic, I should confess that what originally brought me to this board was a mix of ignorance and laziness, and had nothing to do with being "natural"
After years of "dressing", I knew I needed more...of what, exactly, I did not know. I was in a drug store and saw a bottle of pills in the women's health section that promised to boost breast growth. On a whim, I bought the bottle and took the pills for awhile, feeling foolish as I knew I was a sucker. But I looked at the ingredients, and the pills contained a cocktail oh herbal ingredients. Researching those ingredients brought me here, and the rest is history.
But it was about convenience, you see?
Had that same drug store shelf contained bottles os over the counter estradiol, I would have bought that.
However, at the time I was convinced the only path to a supply of regular HRT hormones led through. Therapist and at least a year of living full time as a woman.
This was four years ago and the depth of my ignorance at that time was staggering.
Yes, I now have a supply of estradiol, but only through a series of happy coincidences that led me to it without any of the baggage involving long term therapy, living as a woman and so on. Granted, I am now using the services of a TG therapist, but this came about more in connection to stress after coming out to my wife and the ensuing problems associated with that, rather than an attempt to gain access to a scrip.had I not stumbled into the office of an unbelievably open minded, TG friendly endo, I expect I would still not be using estradiol, and would still be happily scarfing handfuls of PM.
It isn't, for me about whether the "tool" is natural, but about whether it is most effective, and readily available on my terms.
And, yes, I expect PM is far more complex than syn E. On the other hand, I think I had gone maybe as far as I could on PM, and that I needed a change.
We will see where this goes, won!t we?
I suppose, risking branding on this board as a heretic, I should confess that what originally brought me to this board was a mix of ignorance and laziness, and had nothing to do with being "natural"
After years of "dressing", I knew I needed more...of what, exactly, I did not know. I was in a drug store and saw a bottle of pills in the women's health section that promised to boost breast growth. On a whim, I bought the bottle and took the pills for awhile, feeling foolish as I knew I was a sucker. But I looked at the ingredients, and the pills contained a cocktail oh herbal ingredients. Researching those ingredients brought me here, and the rest is history.
But it was about convenience, you see?
Had that same drug store shelf contained bottles os over the counter estradiol, I would have bought that.
However, at the time I was convinced the only path to a supply of regular HRT hormones led through. Therapist and at least a year of living full time as a woman.
This was four years ago and the depth of my ignorance at that time was staggering.
Yes, I now have a supply of estradiol, but only through a series of happy coincidences that led me to it without any of the baggage involving long term therapy, living as a woman and so on. Granted, I am now using the services of a TG therapist, but this came about more in connection to stress after coming out to my wife and the ensuing problems associated with that, rather than an attempt to gain access to a scrip.had I not stumbled into the office of an unbelievably open minded, TG friendly endo, I expect I would still not be using estradiol, and would still be happily scarfing handfuls of PM.
It isn't, for me about whether the "tool" is natural, but about whether it is most effective, and readily available on my terms.
And, yes, I expect PM is far more complex than syn E. On the other hand, I think I had gone maybe as far as I could on PM, and that I needed a change.
We will see where this goes, won!t we?
03-04-2014, 02:47 PM
It's fascinating to have been a part of this community of people for the past 6 months. My ignorance of transgenderism and endocrinology was also staggering less than a year ago, Sammie. (I'm still pretty ignorant of the latter subject, despite all Lotus' wonderful efforts.) The willingness of members of this board to be open about their experiences with feminization, their motivations, their struggles, etc. has been priceless for me. Today, I find myself in a much better place psychologically and emotionally. I don't know when my transformation will be complete, or exactly where I'll end up. It seems that once the journey begins, it must continue for as long as necessary to satisfy some very personal inner calling.
Sammie, I hope you will always be a contributor to Breast Nexus, even if you graduate from herbs to synthetics; even if your journey takes you well beyond the limited scope of this forum. And that wish goes out to everyone. I know it's too much to expect, but don't we all miss Abi Drew's regular contributions to this forum?
Sammie, since you are now under the care of an endo, who, as you mentioned, is not interested in herbals, I would drop the herbs, at least for now and follow your doctor's guidance. It's very important not to be too cavalier about the risks these synthetic hormones pose to your health. Don't you agree?
Just my two bucks worth (inflation, you know
)
A big sisterly hug,
Clara
Sammie, I hope you will always be a contributor to Breast Nexus, even if you graduate from herbs to synthetics; even if your journey takes you well beyond the limited scope of this forum. And that wish goes out to everyone. I know it's too much to expect, but don't we all miss Abi Drew's regular contributions to this forum?
Sammie, since you are now under the care of an endo, who, as you mentioned, is not interested in herbals, I would drop the herbs, at least for now and follow your doctor's guidance. It's very important not to be too cavalier about the risks these synthetic hormones pose to your health. Don't you agree?
Just my two bucks worth (inflation, you know
)A big sisterly hug,
Clara
03-04-2014, 03:19 PM
Thanks, Clara...but I don't think you girls will be pushing me out the door anytime soon. Its still way too much fun around here...not to mention the simple fact that the friends I have here were really Samantha's first friends anywhere, and still my closest and dearest friends. Heck, many of you girls know things about me that no one else has ever known. I love you all dearly. If it is ok with everyone, I think I will stay for awhile.
Shoot, that got me crying...thanks a lot, Clara!
Shoot, that got me crying...thanks a lot, Clara!
03-04-2014, 03:35 PM
I still have a half bottle of those breast pills in my drawer! lol.... I think I got into NBE because I was cheap and didn't want to go get a prescription for anything stronger... which I feel there's nothing wrong with.... if it gets you to where you need to be!
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