[rachel-rache]

I was wondering if people had thoughts on this article. It is about the risk of blood clots and heart disease with high estradiol in men. I'm sure most NBE-ers are aware of this.

https://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/nov...ale_01.htm

I know for me on an almost daily occurrence I get at least one transient anxiety attacks where I can feel my heart throb/palpitate. However, my physical and blood pressure in a physical 2 years ago shows I'm in the normal range. I'm wondering if I should get a more detailed exam as identified in this article before starting something like PM.

[GoneGirl]

The concerns you raise are worth discussing here. Thanks, bobowo.

Here at BreastNexus, we focus primarily on using natural (herbal) substances for shifting the balance of T to E in the body. The herb of choice lately has been PM, a source of a plant estrogen called miroestrol which mimics estradiol (E2) in humans. Since the site you referenced raises the issue of high levels of E2 in older males, not miroestrol, I'm not sure any of the information there is relevant to the use of PM. There are studies that show a beneficial effect of taking PM in women with respect to decreased risk of some cancers and blood clots. Does that mean that taking PM to affect breast growth and other feminizing effects is completely safe for men? We don't know. There is a lack of confirming research.

The other alarm raised in the article is the danger of low testosterone levels. Taking PM alone will lower serum T levels well below the healthy male reference range. I personally can attest to that. Herbal anti-androgens also produce this effect. Am I at greater risk of heart disease as a result? It could be. On the other hand, we should distinguish between cause and effect. Most of the studies measured the T levels of heart attack victims and found a correlation to low T. Does that mean that low T caused the heart disease? Other studies have concluded that high T levels also correlate to higher incidence of heart disease. Seems like a contradiction. I also find the studies confusing in that they don't distinguish between free testosterone and DHT in terms of increased risk to heart attack. Does inhibiting the 5 alpha reductase enzyme that converts free T to DHT produce the greater risk factor?

Lastly, I am more than a little skeptical of websites that sell products and services that benefit from cherry picking research studies that then lead you to buy their stuff. It's not likely to be objective information, so seek confirmation elsewhere.

Does that mean I am not worried about my long term health with regard to my altering the hormonal balance of my body? Certainly not. I have a physical exam annually, and have my blood drawn and analyzed semi-annually. If problems arise, I hope to learn of them early enough to take appropriate action.

I'm interested in other perspectives, as well, and am trying to keep an open mind on the subject. There's a lot we don't know conclusively.

Clara

[undecided]

The concerns you raise are worth discussing here. Thanks, bobowo.

Here at BreastNexus, we focus primarily on using natural (herbal) substances for shifting the balance of T to E in the body. The herb of choice lately has been PM, a source of a plant estrogen called miroestrol which mimics estradiol (E2) in humans. Since the site you referenced raises the issue of high levels of E2 in older males, not miroestrol, I'm not sure any of the information there is relevant to the use of PM. There are studies that show a beneficial effect of taking PM in women with respect to decreased risk of some cancers and blood clots. Does that mean that taking PM to affect breast growth and other feminizing effects is completely safe for men? We don't know. There is a lack of confirming research.

The other alarm raised in the article is the danger of low testosterone levels. Taking PM alone will lower serum T levels well below the healthy male reference range. I personally can attest to that. Herbal anti-androgens also produce this effect. Am I at greater risk of heart disease as a result? It could be. On the other hand, we should distinguish between cause and effect. Most of the studies measured the T levels of heart attack victims and found a correlation to low T. Does that mean that low T caused the heart disease? Other studies have concluded that high T levels also correlate to higher incidence of heart disease. Seems like a contradiction. I also find the studies confusing in that they don't distinguish between free testosterone and DHT in terms of increased risk to heart attack. Does inhibiting the 5 alpha reductase enzyme that converts free T to DHT produce the greater risk factor?

Lastly, I am more than a little skeptical of websites that sell products and services that benefit from cherry picking research studies that then lead you to buy their stuff. It's not likely to be objective information, so seek confirmation elsewhere.

Does that mean I am not worried about my long term health with regard to my altering the hormonal balance of my body? Certainly not. I have a physical exam annually, and have my blood drawn and analyzed semi-annually. If problems arise, I hope to learn of them early enough to take appropriate action.

I'm interested in other perspectives, as well, and am trying to keep an open mind on the subject. There's a lot we don't know conclusively.

Clara

The heart attack issue is something I was looking to find more information on, anything I had read seem to place men with estrogen dominance in the over weight catagory, way too much excess fat around the mid section. I could be wrong, but I take the heart attack issue to be more or a weight issue than an e issue. ( but, wth do I know, I'm no doctor ) my medical a few weeks ago puts my blood pressure in the low mid range for my weight. From most of what I have read on the forum, most of us are not looking to be in the obease weight range, that won't give is the figures we are hoping to achieve.

Of course , anybody doing nbe should keep in mind to see a Dr and get pressure/ blood work checked at least once a year, and asap if you feel something is off.

[GoneGirl]

The heart attack issue is something I was looking to find more information on, anything I had read seem to place men with estrogen dominance in the over weight catagory, way too much excess fat around the mid section. I could be wrong, but I take the heart attack issue to be more or a weight issue than an e issue.

Yes, that goes directly to the question of cause and effect. These studies are focused on cisgender men who have high E levels presumably due to the natural aging process complicated by a life of unhealthy living habits. The overriding cause of the increased rate of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, etc. is probably due to a combination of high cholesterol, high blood pressure, high blood sugar, obesity, etc. The question is: Are these conditions due to having higher than normal E over an extended period of time, or other factors? I suspect that the other factors, both genetic predisposition and unhealthy lifestyle, are more likely increasing the risk of having a life threatening cardiovascular incident.

Clara

[rachel-rache]

Thanks for your replies. In the end I think we just have to balance out risk and reward with our most educated guess, and what we believe gives us the least cumulative stress. I believe mental stress really is the biggest factor in health and longevity.

[GoneGirl]

It does raise an interesting question, though. If you suffered from both high cholesterol and high BP, have a family history of cardiac problems, and your doctor just informed you that your estrogen was far too high, doubling your risk of a stroke, would you take steps to get your estrogen down to a safer level even if it meant experiencing some GD?

Clara

[MissC]

These studies are focused on cisgender men who have high E levels presumably due to the natural aging process complicated by a life of unhealthy living habits. The overriding cause of the increased rate of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, etc. is probably due to a combination of high cholesterol, high blood pressure, high blood sugar, obesity, etc. The question is: Are these conditions due to having higher than normal E over an extended period of time, or other factors?

If I recall correctly, a study I read said that those bad health factors, particularly obesity, would cause the drop in testosterone, which then exacerbates the other conditions.

But on the other hand, there's been success with using testosterone shots to kick-start weight loss.

I don't think there's a clear cause or effect here; it can go both ways.

Overall health is, in my estimation, the best way to examine someone. Health is, after all, holistic, rather than mechanistic or reductionist. We are not just a series of switches that can be turned on and off with particular stimuli. We are more than the sum of our parts. Flipping one switch can change many things, or it may take many switches to fix one thing.

That's a crude analogy at best, but the human understanding of it all is still pretty limited.