[Lenneth]

I've wanted to start this discussion for about a week but haven't due to not having access to some research bookmarks I have on my pc, (on my smartphone atm) but here it goes anyway.

What theorys do you have on where Gender Issues stem from?

Eg, do you think they could come from any of the following or other things?

An Ignored Natural order of things.

Genetic Mutation, either caused by environment changes or (accidental or intentional) polution of our food & water or even government run experimentation on the populace.

or even Extra-Terrestrial Interferance.

from what I have found thier is some evidence for all of those "possibly" being linked to it.

what do you think?

[Missed Miss]

As we all start out as female for the first 3 months of our life in the womb, I think that what happens is that when it comes time for the male hormones to kick in and take over when the baby is supposed to be a boy, thy just don't do a good job of it. I guess it's kinda the other way around when the baby is supposed to be a girl.
Another theory I have is you get all these shots when you're small/new born, not to mention some they give the pregnant mother!! I'd think that it's VERY possible that there's chemicals in that stuff that fuck with your mones!
Yes, I DO think the government has a hand in it! Before the `50's, I know of only 2 or 3 cases of sex changes. Now look how many!! Are you going to tell me they AREN'T fucking with us?? We are their lab rats!! If you KNEW some of the shit they've done to us over the decades.....!!!!
It COULD be aliens, but I wouldn't count on it. Unless you mean the ones working with the government.
Genetic mutation via things they've done to our food, water and medicine.

[Arielle]

It has to be genetic and cultural, there is no tangible difference except for a couple of a couple of Genes, there isn't anything else than body chemistry that seperate the two sexes.

Genetically there has to be a recognition that the species is innately conditioned to propagate and survive. In survival of any mammal the reproductive system shuts down, and when times are good, we are on hormone overdrive to breed.

I think the cultural element is more profound here in some ways, because it happens so overtly and as there is no means of control, you cannot measure it's effect. For example, a baby girl is given 'girly colours', these things are associated from an early age.
When we look at behaviours (I am specifically talking of a western/Christian style upbringing specifically here, as I have no experience of other systems), there is great effort taken in most cases to allow individual freedom, but blanket brainwashing for the two sexes, and this happens from before speech is understood. Baby TV also reinforces the gender stereotypes, as do playgroup/school/grandparents/friends etc.

Certainly during the early periods of history the religions actively encouraged contraception to boost population growth (more followers == more money and power). The Romans had many contraception methods that worked, and were all later banned in the dominant faith systems. (But then the Romans also had relative flexibility in their own spirituality and could mostly choose their gods).

Anyhow looking a bit further back in time, and the key point of my post was it wasn't always this way we have today. The Spartans had institutionalised homosexuality. To the extent that to propagate the population, women often had to dress up as boys to have a successful liaison. To that extent (and ultimately the demise except for a couple of unfortunate wars) the system became so efficient at effecting behaviour that it was no longer viable to maintain a population.



So to come back to the point, I think it is basic insecurity that it built into the way we think when we are young. To cover Missed Miss's point, the technology we have today gives people an option, but then in the last 50 years or so, the technology we have now bears no resemblance to what we had. This has had a profound effect on peoples ability to express these things. The Internets has allowed like minded people to connect in a way they have never been able to do so before.

Literature and history is replete with examples of 'troubled' people, isn't this a way to illustrate without saying (because it was physically dangerous then), that identity issues could have been suffered.

My 5 pennies, sorry it is so long.

GM

[AnnieBL]

As we all start out as female for the first 3 months of our life in the womb, I think that what happens is that when it comes time for the male hormones to kick in and take over when the baby is supposed to be a boy, thy just don't do a good job of it. I guess it's kinda the other way around when the baby is supposed to be a girl.
Another theory I have is you get all these shots when you're small/new born, not to mention some they give the pregnant mother!! I'd think that it's VERY possible that there's chemicals in that stuff that fuck with your mones!
Yes, I DO think the government has a hand in it! Before the `50's, I know of only 2 or 3 cases of sex changes. Now look how many!! Are you going to tell me they AREN'T fucking with us?? We are their lab rats!! If you KNEW some of the shit they've done to us over the decades.....!!!!
It COULD be aliens, but I wouldn't count on it. Unless you mean the ones working with the government.
Genetic mutation via things they've done to our food, water and medicine.

I'm right with you so far as your first paragraph goes. In my own case, I'm convinced that it is because my mother got rubella in the seventeenth week of pregnancy. I am thankful that it wasn't a bit earlier like a long time friend of mine who was born stone deaf, or our next door neighbor's older daughter who is deaf-mute and nearly blind.

As to your second paragraph, I believe that the epidemic of gender variance in those now over about 40 may be to a large extent due to the very widespread treatment (I think I've read more than 10 million in the US alone) over 30 years or more of pregnant women with DES, the first synthetic female sex hormone, in the mistaken belief that it helped prevent miscarriage. It took far too long to stop this, in some countries more than others. By that time our environment was getting so full of xeno-estrogens of various types that the epidemic has continued.

In relation to your third paragraph, the possibility of sex change simply wasn't on the practical horizon for most people until comparatively recent years (may be by saying comparatively recently I'm showing my age ) so one lived or died the way one was. It is also I believe one of the reasons for the frequency of 'late onset' gender variance. In my case it didn't stop much earlier dysphoria but it wasn't until recently that I really understood the reason. Another factor may be the customary binary assignment of sex to newborns, sometimes with surgical intervention and always with societal (not I think government) pressure to attempt to confirm the assignment.

[GoneGirl]

I believe that gender identity along with personality is hardwired at conception and during fetal gestation. By one's birth day, everything is set in stone. Cultural influences are real, of course. They tend to make people either reinforce their in-born nature, or they work to stifle it. Gender dysphoria arises in two stages. First, as a child grows, he learns to recognize the dichotomy between males and females and starts to identify with one side or the other with a great deal of parental bias at work. Second, his body develops to the opposite sex that he identifies with. The incongruity is amplified by the behaviors and interests that everyone expects of him based on his assigned gender role. If the disparity between his subconscious and his conscious gender sense is too great, chronic mental discomfort of one form or another occurs until the gender conflict is resolved.

Clara

[Samantha Rogers]

Well, not too sure about the extra terrestrial business, Lenneth, but I do agree with the points about estrogen based miscarriage treatments having a huge affect.
But, taking another tack, I also believe evolution plays a role. In prior eras, usually, survival dictated that two roles be enforced...the hunter/warrior and the caregiver/nurturer, ie male and female respectively. However, when a society reaches a point where these roles are no longer needed, as has happened not only recently in developed Western culture but also within priviliged segments os past societies (think of the aristocrats of prerevolutionary Europe and England...there were times when the Royal court of France was rife with crossdressing), then evolution no longer requires rigid definition of gender or sex roles and the system becomes one held in place only by societal convention. Barring some cataclysmic event throwing Western developed societies back into a more brutal state, I can envision a future rapid decline in gender stereotyping, at least in geographical areas where technology is most prevelant and where brute force is no longer necessary for survival.
Of course, I could be completely full of it...tee hee.

[flamesabers]

Lenneth,

Speaking for myself, I think my gender issues stem from two sources. The first is a lifelong question of why I was born male. The second is a lack of personal compunction to not push, bend or break gender norms.

I think social upbringing has a lot to do with our perception of gender. For instance, as a child it appeared to me the norm was boys are loud, aggressive, boastful and generally subpar students. Girls on the other hand were usually quiet, compliant, cooperative and generally enjoyed school. In other societies (some cultures in Asia/Pacific area if I recall correctly), the gender roles I observed are reversed. If raised in such a society, would I have had a more prominent identification with the male gender? Maybe, I don’t know.

Outside of gender, there are countless other areas that society has shaped our perspective in. For instance, at the turn of the 20th century, a person’s well-being was only measured by their physical health. Also, when our lifespan was shorter, teenage marriages were commonplace. Perhaps a hundred years from now or more the stigma of cross-gender identification may disappear completely. While this may seem impossible to conceive of, consider how the support of gay marriage is getting stronger and stronger. Those who have been around for awhile I’m sure can say a lot about how society’s attitude towards homosexuality has evolved over the last few decades.

[GoneGirl]

The behaviors that a culture expects of each sex is beyond the control of the individual. Everyone is born into a culture, and based on one's birth-assigned gender, certain behavioral norms are taught, encouraged, and even enforced, for example, through stigmatization when those norms are violated.

Those gender-based behaviors are to a large degree arbitrary in any given population. The standards of behavior, dress, etc. themselves are not the problem, it's the differentiation of behaviors between the two genders that is the source of GD in cross gendered individuals.

Males and females will always seek ways to physically differentiate themselves from the opposite sex beyond the natural differences in body shape and size. Preserving these appearance differences seems to be necessary for the procreation of the species. Those of us who don't conform to these norms are viewed as anomalies -- freaks of nature, if you will -- and not valued in the grand scheme of life.

Gender diversity has been with us since ancient times. Periods of acceptance and intolerance of gender variation have come in and out of fashion, as well. I think we can all be thankful that we are riding a wave of increased tolerance as the need for strict differentiation of the genders is no longer seen as crucial to the functioning of society.

Clara

[Marina Kits]

My favorite theory and the one that seems most logical to me is the one concerning the "hormone wash" in uterine. Because I posses a Y chromosome, I was supposed to get a good blast of testosterone during development but instead I only got a weak dose... you know the rest of the story. The "problem" may have been exacerbated by my family dynamics, culture, inadvertent exposure to estrogen and my own endocrine system. Whatever the cause, I'm sure there IS a cause because my gender mismatch is nothing I would choose for myself and I'd gladly say to hell with it if I could. That last sentiment is pretty consistent among trans persons I've met or spoken to which reinforces my notion that it's NOT a choice and there IS a cause!

I'm also of the persuasion that, "I'm not as I'm supposed to be". I believe God created a perfect world and had things stayed that way, I wouldn't struggle with gender dysphoria. When my time here is done, I'll go to a place where gender is nonexistent and obviously not necessary. My soul will be free of this dissonance.

On a side note, the theory that says we all start out as females, while somewhat similar to what I've said above, doesn't work in my mind because of one small fact. We who have male genitalia also have a Y chromosome that was present the day we were conceived. In other words, we start out, destined to have male or female organs from the moment sperm and egg are united.

[Lenneth]

Before I start on some of the alien stuff I mentioned, please note that I'm not saying any one thing or theory I mention has presented itself to me to be a guaranteed sole cause, they are simply "possibilitys" that have some degree of backing.

Since I don't have my reference bookmarks handy you will have to look this up on your own.

In an ancient myth of a African tribe that are said to originated in Egypt before it was egypt, it is said that most current life on earth is a result of what amounts to a process to repair damage caused by an experiment conducted by an alien race that unintentionally went fubar.

The tribe is called the Dogon and the Alien race is called the Nomo/Nummo, a race that were female by default, but would become male temporarily when needed for reproductive purposes.
(much like several spices of frog & fish)

long story short humans were seemingly engineered to end up the same gender wise as the nummo eventuality.

I'll look up a couple audio blogs I know of that describe this far better than I can from a smartphone and post them later.

Audio Blog Files:
http://halfpasthuman.com/wujo/wujo3312012nummo.mp3


http://halfpasthuman.com/wujo/clifswujo3132013haboo.mp3