[bobie]

I would like to better understand how nbe works or more specifically what exactly triggers feminine breast growth in bio males and the required dosing to achieve this, i have been using purafem pm capsules and pm cream (massaged twice daily) for 11 days now, today i upped my dose to 2100mg a day. consists of 2 350mg capsules first thing in the morning, 1 350mg capsule at about 2pm and 3 350mg capsules just before bed, i have what i assume to be some fat now in the breast area that wasnt there at the start, what triggers budding and growth?, do oestrogen levels need to be really high for this to happen? or is it achievable at lower levels, is it possible that using the cream is counter productive? obviously not expecting results overnight or anything but would like to go about this with a vague understanding of what is needed, i will also be cycling 21 days on 7 days off to try and keep the male parts working longer term

[flamesabers]

Hello bobie.

The short answer to your questions is to achieve breast growth you'll need to restructure your hormones to that of a gg. Since you're taking a decent amount of pm, I think it's just a matter of time before you achieve some breast development.

[Pansy-Mae]

Hi bobie,

Flame is spot on in what she said, but just to add a few things -
Firstly, Yes, after a week or so, that is almost certainly fat you've noticed on your chest. That is confirmation that the PM is starting to work but if you stop the PM it will disappear again.

Second, it will take time to get the beginning of real growth ( what we call 'budding'), it can take anything up to 3 or 4 months to start, so be prepared for the long haul.

What triggers breast growth is oestrogen, or an oestrogen substitute that is found in PM.

Really high levels will neither increase the size of breasts nor the speed of growth. You only have a specific number of receptors and trying to overfill them doesn't do anything other than pour money down the drain. What it will do is cause 'E dominance' and give you nasty headaches, muscles aches, cramps, and other unpleasant side effects. You need to play around with doses to find what works for you, but typically 4 x500mg per day seems to work, some take more, but I don't think anyone takes more than 6 x500mg routinely.

Personally, the cream does nothing for me and is a waste of money, I think.The Miroestrol in PM is most effective after having been converted to Deoxy-Miroestrol in the liver, so that's where you need to get it to, and your mouth is the quickest way in!

[Samantha Rogers]

Hi Bobie,
The girls have summed things up nicely, but there is another factor to consider, and that is testosterone. As bio males our T levels are at war with the E for control of the system. Simply increasing E is good, but best results will come from also reducing T. That is the essential formula for all HRT. Reduce T and increase E.
How old are you? I ask because the younger you are the more T your body will naturally produce, while the older you are the more T production will decrease.
Adding E, whether in the form of Estradial or its phyto equivalent Mirostral, found in PM, is often enough to produce growth to a degree. But to gain large growth and the full feminization most TG girls want, reducing T is also necessary. In pharma based HRT programs an anti androgen like Spiro is commonly used. For herbal purists, herbs like SP, or spearmint, licorice and so on are the preferred choices. More about all of this can be found in many other threads, especially the many detailed and exhaustive accounts posted by dear Lotus on different threads but mostly in the FAQ section.
Good luck, sweetheart!
Hugs

[bobie]

Samantha im in my early 30's, i was under the impression though (to a degree) that once your bodies oestrogen levels reach a point testosterone is no longer produced? or maybe that was just by the testicles, you may remember me saying elsewhere on here that at the moment i want to keep my male parts ticking over (dont want them to stop working in the longer term, that may of course change) hence the cycles of 3 weeks on pm then a week off to let t levels build up a little for the bits that need it then back on another cycle, if you know of a suitable anti androgen that doesnt stay in the system too long (by that i mean would clear well within a break( im all up for trying it, i have some sp but i think both you and clara suggested i didnt use it in my situation, i know im not making things easy here, if i could be a bio female and the flick of a switch i would but it kinda scares me at the moment the prospect of either going the whole way but not being a real woman (in the sense of having ALL the bits) or being someone who's male bits are there but dont work...

[GoneGirl]

I'm an advocate of newbies starting with a simple regimen of just PM. That's what I did for the first three months of NBE based on comments the Flamesabers posted early in her NBE journey.

PM not only provides the needed estrogen for stimulating breast tissue growth, but also will drive down your total T level. You won't need an anti-androgen (AA) starting out. It took me awhile to understand how that works. It involves one of several feedback loops that your endocrine system uses to control the amounts of different hormones, proteins and enzyme in the blood.

Still interested? Okay, then here goes....testosterone is produce by the testes in response to the presence of another hormone called lutenizing hormone (LH). LH is produced by the pituitary gland in response to how much T is present in the body. When your T level drops, the pituitary outputs more LH which triggers the production of T in the testes.

Here's the interesting part....the pituitary gland can't distinguish between T and E. As long as the combination of T+E is high enough, no call for more T (i.e., LH) is sent to the testes. The estrogen that PM provides (miroestrol) looks enough like the human estrogen (estradiol) to the pituitary gland to also disrupt the feedback loop for T production by the testes. In other words, PM indirectly inhibits the production of testosterone.

When I had my total T tested after 3 months on just PM, it came back below the normal range for a male and only slightly higher than the normal range for a female. Yes, girls have T, too, but only about 1/10 that of males. I was almost at GG level for T using just PM!

So, the point is, you don't need to put together a complex program of different estrogenic and anti-androgen herbs to get a good start growing breasts. A simple daily dose of PM at about 2000 mg is all you need. Once breast tissue has formed (breast buds appear) and you learn your body's sensitivity to PM (how quickly your breasts grow), you may want to add an anti-androgen to further reduce your T/E ratio, and specifically to target DHT another form of testosterone that is responsible for masculinizing the appearance of your body.

I hope this has not been too much to absorb. It took me months to begin understanding the basics of the endocrine system, so don't fret if it all seems too complex. It is.

Hugs,
Clara

[bobie]

Not too much at all to absorb thanks clara, honestly cannot read enough, find it all very interesting, i like to know how things work (reason for starting this thread)

[Samantha Rogers]

I do recall, now Bobie, but thanks for reminding me. In that case, I echo Clara in suggesting a regimen of just PM (with breaks as you are doing) is probably best for you. In fact, I have often suggested that for most people starting out, just PM is all they need for the first year or more. But at your age, to achieve large growth, over time you may still want to reduce T more than can be done with just PM. I will be a choice you will eventually face, so just be aware. Finding that perfect balance for breast growth and male function is the Holy Grail many start out seeking. But over time, the large amounts of phyto E can and usually do begin to alter your views and you may find, as so many have, that your original goals alter as well.
Good luck, honey!
Hugs

[bobie]

Thanks samantha, as to male function, long term, not worried about my bits sitting dormant at the moment or using them short term as long as i know they are alright, i will be less worried when i can afford to make a deposit at a sperm bank just in case, as unlkely as it seems at this point that i will have kids its nice to know if i wanted to i can using my own sperm if i did meet someone, actually and this came as a bit of a surprise i have really enjoyed the changes to my sex drive/libido from pm, nice to feel in control rather than controlled, something i have toyed with is either low doses of an anti androgen or infrequent low doses maybe just a couple of times a week so as to knock the t levels down but not too much, first to see if the pm alone gives me any growth though, i am not the most patient person so would be hoping to see some sign within a month, not sure i will or not though, the fat is a good sign i guess though

[Bronzequeen]

Hello bobie.

The short answer to your questions is to achieve breast growth you'll need to restructure your hormones to that of a gg. Since you're taking a decent amount of pm, I think it's just a matter of time before you achieve some breast development.

can someone explain to me what pm is? I'm new this forum