[GoneGirl]

I know that the use of synthetic estrogen (E2) and T-blockers is not the focus of this forum, but there are several of us who have used PM for months, even years, and have since switched to synthetic estrogen for various reasons. What I want to capture in this thread is a comparison of the two in terms of results and side effects that have been observed.

Lotus asked about my experience with back and leg pain with each, to which I replied that I've not experienced any pain with either PM or E2, except pain associated with breast growth which for me is similar for both.

I have noticed that since switching to E2, my areolas have increased in diameter and lightened up in color considerably. PM often has the effect of darkening the areolas. That was my experience, too, but after 2 weeks on E2 my nipples have become quite light in color. Have other noticed that as well?

What other differences have you noticed? Growth rate? Emotions? Pain? Feminization? Energy? Sex drive? Other?

Clara

[SarahSchilling]

PM

Fuller lips
Softer skin
Slower breast growth
Some fat redistribution
Occasional headaches and digestive problems
Euphoria
More Empathetic
Thicker head hair/less body hair
Feeling sexy but with decreased function (the two things aren't really the same)

Estradiol

Softer, but much drier skin
Quicker breast growth
More fat redistribution (good for curves, bad for pooch)
Mood swings
Extreme empathy
Little sex drive and greatly decreased function

I've taken each for at least a year apiece and these are some of my observations. Some of them are probably just me, others are likely more universal. Also, the anti-androgens taken at the time likely play a factor into my perception of each. Mostly SP with the PM and androcur/spiro/fincar with the estradiol.

[Samantha Rogers]

Hard to say, since I am mixing the two. You know Sammie...too much is not enough...lol
I have noticed an increase in occasional night time leg cramps, and on days when I really go overboard I get some back pains (center of the back on each side) and the emotion go into overdrive.

[Marina Kits]

It's hard to dissect out just what is caused by estradiol and dose would be a huge factor that should be mentioned. I've never taken just one thing so rather than spell out exactly what I did and am doing, I'll give you my very subjective opinion on what it has done for me. @ 2mg sublingually, once daily... very little. I think I've gotten more results by bumping my PM up another 500mg daily than what I have from estradiol. Will I quit taking it then? No. It will remain a PART of my regime at least for the foreseeable future. For those who don't know, 2mg daily is a very low dose - most MtF transgender's under the supervision of a doctor are taking 4-8mg (if I'm not mistaken). Bottom line... I like the herbal / pharma combination for now.

[GoneGirl]

PM

Fuller lips
Softer skin
Slower breast growth
Some fat redistribution
Occasional headaches and digestive problems
Euphoria
More Empathetic
Thicker head hair/less body hair
Feeling sexy but with decreased function (the two things aren't really the same)

Estradiol

Softer, but much drier skin
Quicker breast growth
More fat redistribution (good for curves, bad for pooch)
Mood swings
Extreme empathy
Little sex drive and greatly decreased function

I've taken each for at least a year apiece and these are some of my observations. Some of them are probably just me, others are likely more universal. Also, the anti-androgens taken at the time likely play a factor into my perception of each. Mostly SP with the PM and androcur/spiro/fincar with the estradiol.

Thank you, Sarah, that's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
You're right though about it being an individual thing. On PM, I haven't seen any change in my lips, body fat redistribution, or reduction in body hair (although hair started to regrow on my head). My breast growth was faster than I expected even though I was taking relatively low doses of PM (<2000 mg which probably explains the total avoidance of side effects). I did experience a marked reduction in mental anxiety and increased empathy and a tendency to tear up. My male sex drive dropped like a rock, but I kept my male function by taking periodic breaks. AA's were not introduced until month five.

On E2 + T-blockers, not much has changed yet. I mentioned my areola/nipple changes. I think breast growth is accelerating, too. The biggest changes may be mental. I seem much more comfortable with my transgender psyche. I have not experienced those on again/off again wtf moments questioning my motives. I'm waiting for the other feminizing effects, but none has shown up yet, but it could be because I'm on a modest dosage regimen (4 mg daily). My next doctors appointment isn't until August, so I want to err on the side of caution.

Clara

[bobie]

Does seem to vary from person to person the effects of pm, i know i have had some real odd ones so far, if you asked my parents they would tell you how my face and hands have changed already, the family now calls them my happy pills given my mood, the strangest effect i have had would be a secretion from the scrotum (see the extract below), tempted to try and come up with something to stick on here under the faq's of all the effects/side effects users may have as after reading up on pm/hrt to the extent i have (thats a lot) no one place has anything near all the info, clara what dose of spiro are you taking? i discovered how easy it was to get synthetics and its something im considering, family funnily enough are in favor of it over pm anyway the extract i mentioned, came across this on a tg site, guess im lucky then if i ever go all the way? no surprise i guess when you look at fetal development and how we all start out as female with both genitalia

"Q: Vaginal lubrication

I sometimes get asked about vaginal lubrication and if something was done surgically to cause it. There was nothing done by my surgeon specifically to make me lubricate. I secreted a slippery substance from the base of my scrotum for years after starting hormones. Since the scrotum is used in SRS, it makes sense that I'd produce the substance post-op. The entire inner area of my labia and vagina are usually covered with a substance that's no different, in scent and feel, from what a GG produces."

[GoneGirl]

.....the strangest effect i have had would be a secretion from the scrotum (see the extract below)......

"Q: Vaginal lubrication

I sometimes get asked about vaginal lubrication and if something was done surgically to cause it. There was nothing done by my surgeon specifically to make me lubricate. I secreted a slippery substance from the base of my scrotum for years after starting hormones. Since the scrotum is used in SRS, it makes sense that I'd produce the substance post-op. The entire inner area of my labia and vagina are usually covered with a substance that's no different, in scent and feel, from what a GG produces."

I'm glad you reminded me of this, because I've noticed it at times, too. In fact, I use a panty liner at times to absorb the wetness. Man, does THAT make me feel like a woman!

I'm taking 25 mg spiro mornings and another 25 mg evenings. Again, a rather low dosage, but I'm also taking 5 mg of finasteride (anti-DHT) daily.

Yes, synthetics are easy to get on-line without a prescription, but I plan to go under a doctors watchful eye soon and buy locally with a prescription. It's safer to go that way.

Clara

[Samantha Rogers]

It's hard to dissect out just what is caused by estradiol and dose would be a huge factor that should be mentioned. I've never taken just one thing so rather than spell out exactly what I did and am doing, I'll give you my very subjective opinion on what it has done for me. @ 2mg sublingually, once daily... very little. I think I've gotten more results by bumping my PM up another 500mg daily than what I have from estradiol. Will I quit taking it then? No. It will remain a PART of my regime at least for the foreseeable future. For those who don't know, 2mg daily is a very low dose - most MtF transgender's under the supervision of a doctor are taking 4-8mg (if I'm not mistaken). Bottom line... I like the herbal / pharma combination for now.

Kari, you and I seem to be the two mixed program rebels here, using both herbs an E. I am currently on 3 or 4 mgs a day of E plus between 1000 and 2000 mgs daily of PM. Plus some left over licorice. When that runs out I will just stop as I did with Peony. I do also use PC roughly 5 times a week.
If I were to add anything it would be Microgest instead of the OTC PC I now use. I may go to that
Appointment to see my endo again in a week or so. Curious about the T levels and if they are slowly climbing since I am currently not using any AA

PS - Bobie...I think I LOVE your family! Lol

[Marina Kits]

Kari, you and I seem to be the two mixed program rebels here, using both herbs an E. I am currently on 3 or 4 mgs a day of E plus between 1000 and 2000 mgs daily of PM. Plus some left over licorice. When that runs out I will just stop as I did with Peony. I do also use PC roughly 5 times a week.
If I were to add anything it would be Microgest instead of the OTC PC I now use. I may go to that
Appointment to see my endo again in a week or so. Curious about the T levels and if they are slowly climbing since I am currently not using any AA

Well, it sure feels nice to know that in the company of at least one other and I couldn't be happier than being here with you Sammie!

Currently I'm taking 2000mg PM, 640mg SP, 1mg "Propecia", 800mg spearmint and a biotin / vitamin combo for hair, skin and nails. I'd like to try Chaste Tree Berry, progesterone creams (prescription) and the E patch rather than pills. I'm starting to think I wouldn't mind a powerful anti-A but I'm losing function with what I'm doing and don't want to disappoint my bride. On the bright side though, she asks for, and I think secretly prefers, oral so my junk is happily become obsolete and therefore, increasing the odds of lower SRS someday. ...Makes my heart ache just thinking about it.

[GoneGirl]

My reason for not mixing PM and E2 is that it's harder to know what's going on in my body. It's important for the body to have enough sex hormone (T + E). I want to make sure that my levels are within safe ranges for someone doing HRT. The way to do that is to have regular labs tests. Unfortunately, the lab tests don't measure phyto-estrogens (miroestrol), only the the human estrogens, typically E2 (estradiol). Mixing PM and E2 makes the lab test results harder to interpret on the E side. I've nothing against PM and herbals in general, but I want to be sure my sex hormones are within safe limits, and not asking my doctor to take into account the estrogenic contribution of the herbs. From what I've heard, physicians just won't do it.

Anyway, I'm not trying to sway anyone, just explaining my personal view point.

Clara