[Lotus]

(Dietary) copper regulates receptors. http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1...002-221054 "Discussion" section. too high levels cause estrogen excess, and can cause problems during pregnancy.

(Dietary) chromium decreases ER-alpha proteins (in cancer cells but believed to do this in healthy cells too), decreasing sensitivity.(lacking source)

"breast cancer patients have abnormal levels of copper (Cu), Zn, Se, and Cd" (Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Cadmium) "here is also some evidence for an inverse association between Zn and breast cancer, while there is no association between exposure to Se and the risk of breast, colorectal, and stomach cancer and between Zn and the risk to develop prostate cancer [12]. Nevertheless, positive associations of breast cancer with Zn, iron, and calcium, but little association with Se, have been reported in [17]." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143443/

Small amounts of chromium and copper found in food are essential trace nutrients. Excess of dietary estrogenic metals is carcinogenic. Other estrogenic metals are carinogenic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671233/

Calcium is an exception, as it is linked to reduced risk of breast cancer, http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2...041210.php.

Great post lovely, thanks!

I was looking into info regarding mineral toxicity testing and came across these articles a couple of weeks ago.

Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis
http://metabolichealing.com/hair-tissue-...-analysis/

Birth Control: Copper Toxicity & Estrogen Excess
http://metabolichealing.com/birth-contro...en-excess/


What do you have on mineral toxicity testing?

[Dynseli]

Our sources both say an excess of copper is bad. A hair test is a good idea.

There are reference indexes for amounts of dietary metals needed. Minerals are harder to balance, where vitamins just need to be taken. From the above, an excess of dietary estrogenic metals cause health problems. Calcium prevents cancer. Toxic metalloestrogens can replace Calcium, Chromium, or Copper in Receptors.

Mercury or its different forms are the most toxic non-radioactive substance there is. Lead and other metals can be taken up by plants or (an even worse case for) spirinula. Scientists are unsure if lead has a function for plants,but it can be incorporated in their structure. Spirinula itself is nontoxic, but it absorbs toxins that other life can't. if it grows in a toxic bed, then it is just as toxic.

There were pages on how toxic metals come into contact through certain workplaces, or through water, soil, or plant contamination. It said people take in a tiny amount of toxic metals each day.

[Dynseli]

I've experienced an increase in size with my progesterone-heavy bcp & goat's rue, but now I'm wondering if it's just water weight/ general weight gain and tipping the balance towards oestrogen might be a better idea

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/...003153.htm says the swelling during luteal phase is growth caused by progestins.

When pregnancy and breastfeeding are over, the breasts usually shrink back to their before size. To a smaller extent, there is a comparison here to the luteal phase.

I read somewhere on pubmed that either progestins were an estrogen receptor antagonist. or estrogens were a progesterone receptor antagonist. This thread is about up or down regulation, see how that can fit in the puzzle? cycling herbs at the right time of the cycle. Also, what if estrogens and progestins undo some of the growth caused by each other. IGF-1 (insulin) and nutrition are also important.

There are three phases, but they get shortened to two. Menstruation, ovulation, and luteal. Estrogens are usually high during the follicular phase. Progestins are high during the luteal phase. I think make the most of those hormones during those times.

Some synthetic progesterones increase cancer risk, but I read that others may not. Synthetic estrogen given without progesterone is also a cancer risk factor.

[wizzness]

Hey lotus! I just read this article posted on the 'Sythetic oestrogen vs PM' thread as part of a discussion about the role of progesterone in growing breats: http://www.gender.org.uk/gendys/2009/47curtis.htm

I've experienced an increase in size with my progesterone-heavy bcp & goat's rue, but now I'm wondering if it's just water weight/ general weight gain and tipping the balance towards oestrogen might be a better idea? I've heard some proclaim that you can grow with just progesterone & prolactin promotion, but this seems to suggest that growth is down to oestrogen and that progesterone reduced oestrogen receptors....reckon I should stop bcp to re-sensitise myself to oestrogen or take more oestrogen with the bcp?

Hi wizz,

I've seen this article before, I've also seen this one by Dr. Curtis.
The dangers of the internet and unsupervised prescribing
http://www.gender.org.uk/gendys/2007/39curtis.htm

• The question I came away with was no sourced studies are linked, that's not to say it's not legitimate, accompanying studies back up the research.
  

• I started using PC last year and although I have to say it gives a nasty aggressive nature, it did provide side branching and elongation.
  

• What's the BCP dose and how long have you been on it?
  

I've looked into this before, I have more info but thought what I posted was most relevant. I'd have to look and see if any of the info has change but it's not that old.

• Prolactin and progesterone may enhance ductal outgrowth by inducing ERα expression.
  

• Activation of ER-α causes elongation or horizontal growth of mammary duct cells. Progesterone receptor activation causes side-branching of mammary gland cells. Density, areolar gland development, and gland lactation development are caused by prolactin receptor activation.
  

Check pages 5 thru 9
Hormone Action in the Mammary Gland
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2982168/

I found these statements and wanted more info, granted, some of the info comes from sites that are selling products. However, not much easily identifiable info is given while researching for PC and Bio-males without a product being offered or from a scientific abstract which are difficult to decipher.

(5-alpha reductase inhibitors such as finasteride are usually given to prevent the conversion of testosterone to DHT, but research has found that progesterone is a natural inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase.)

Read more: http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/proge...z2uY1QWH3r
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

Progesterone 5alpha-reductase- http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone_5alpha-reductase

• Progesterone is used in hormone therapy for transsexual women, and some intersex women - especially when synthetic progestins have been ineffective or caused side-effects - since normal breast tissue cannot develop except in the presence of both progestogen and estrogen. Mammary glandular tissue is otherwise fibrotic, the breast shape conical and the areola immature. Progesterone can correct those even after years of inadequate hormonal treatment. Research usually cited against such value was conducted using Provera, a synthetic progestin. Progesterone also has a role in skin elasticity and bone strength, in respiration, in nerve tissue and in female sexuality, and the presence of progesterone receptors in certain muscle and fat tissue may hint at a role in sexually-dimorphic proportions of those.

Progesterone may effect male behavior: 'Progesterone receptors mediate male aggression toward infants' PNAS 2003 100: 2951-2956; 10.1073/pnas.0130100100



More interesting facts:

• Men need it to make testosterone and for the adrenal glands to make cortisone
  
• Progesterone in males is created during testicular production of testosterone
  
• Men with BPH (swelling of the prostate) and other male related problems report that they experience some relief with progesterone cream
  
• Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics
  
• Men report that it helps them with complexion and increases energy
  
• It is believed to help balance the estrogens that build in a man's body
  because progesterone levels drop, estradiol levels rise, and testosterone changes in form in older men
  
• Adding progesterone back into the body helps restore normal inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase, thus preventing testosterone from changing into dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which stimulates proliferation of prostate cells
  
• If men have low progesterone levels their estradiol levels can increase. This increase can lead to cancer of the prostate, just as it leads to breast and uterine cancer in
  women

http://www.vienuetestosterone.com/refere...terone.asp



Progesterone cream can help to reduce the prostate size. Progesterone's inhibitory effect on 5 alpha reductase is far more effective than Proscar which is standard agents used in traditional medicine to cure BPH. All men over age 40 should consider natural progesterone replacement therapy, or even earlier if there is a history of prostate caner or BPH. The amount needed is 8 - 12 mg a day (1/8 tsp -1/4 tsp twice daily). Men should apply directly to their scrotum (testical sac) twice daily. This allows it to get into the prostate receptors. http://www.bluemountainrx.com/progesterone_men.htm


Characterization and localization of progesterone 5 alpha-reductase from cell cultures of foxglove (Digitalis lanata EHRH)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1131093/


Role of 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors in the management of prostate cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699636/

A high affinity inhibitor of pituitary progesterone 5 alpha-reductase.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6581041

Thanks! I don't think 5-alpha reductase is relevant to me as my natural hormones are currently 'switched off' by bcp? And there's also the problem I just remembered where progestins in bcp are not quite like natural progesterone, and can perhaps also have oestrogenic effects :L My bcp is marvellon, been on it since january. it's 150mcg desogestrel and 30mcg ethinylestradiol. Before that I was on ovranette for a few months.

[rocketmelon]

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[Lotus]

Thanks! I don't think 5-alpha reductase is relevant to me as my natural hormones are currently 'switched off' by bcp? And there's also the problem I just remembered where progestins in bcp are not quite like natural progesterone, and can perhaps also have oestrogenic effects :L My bcp is marvellon, been on it since january. it's 150mcg desogestrel and 30mcg ethinylestradiol. Before that I was on ovranette for a few months.

Hi wizz take a look at this,


   

[AquaA]

Just the thread I needed. I was just wondering about the long loop negative feedback mechanism and how it woukd be effected by the herbs I am taking. High levels of estrogen leads to -ve feedback of FSH. So if a person is taking PM or anything that induces estrogen in the body, wouldn't that cause FSH levels to drop causing in the inhibition of your own hormones? Wouldn't that have a bad side effect in the long run?

[Dynseli]

I believe receptor regulation and feedback are different, but one might play a role in the other. I've been meaning to research negative feedback, but ended up finding a whole lot of other useful information. Different phytoestrogens don't necessarily play the same role as body estrogens for up/down-regulation. There isn't much to be found on phytohormones and receptor regulation. FSH and LH are only naturally high during ovulation. If those are resulted by negative feedback, then lowering those could possibly cause fertility issues later on. Spearmint raises FSH and LH http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...objectonly . Chasteberry increases LH and decreases FSH http://www.fugh-berman.com/files/Bust.pdf .

Cycling between herbal prolactin, progestins and estrogens might possibly be good to upregulate what has been downregulated by each other, while all three stimulate breast tissue growth.

[Lotus]

Just the thread I needed. I was just wondering about the long loop negative feedback mechanism and how it woukd be effected by the herbs I am taking. High levels of estrogen leads to -ve feedback of FSH. So if a person is taking PM or anything that induces estrogen in the body, wouldn't that cause FSH levels to drop causing in the inhibition of your own hormones? Wouldn't that have a bad side effect in the long run?

Hi AA, (apologies for the lengthy reply)

Technically, it's more of a response seen in estrogen receptors, maintaining hemostasis is ideally the outcome (no gaurentees, especially if a thyroid issue exists).

Do you mean after ovulation when progesterone is produced?, which at that point causes a negative feedback mechanism that shuts down FSH secretion.


Well, here's some great reference stuff:

Control of Endocrine Activity
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pat...ntrol.html


Gonadotropins: Luteinizing and Follicle Stimulating Hormones
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pat...lhfsh.html

So if a person is taking PM or anything that induces estrogen in the body, wouldn't that cause FSH levels to drop causing in the inhibition of your own hormones? Wouldn't that have a bad side effect in the long run?

I'd say this one could be problematic, meaning everyone is gonna be different. Lab work will confirm test results (if inclined to do so) and then we'd have to assume testing would be free of PM or BC just to get a baseline (like I said, problematic).

Miroestriol and the stronger Dexymiroestrol (Boob growth initiators of PM) has to have a metabolic activation. ( The chemical alteration of an exogenous substance by or in a biological system.)

There was a study of an undisclosed amount of perimenopausal women where they found the mean serum estradiol was slightly increased using a dose of 100 mg's of PM, while the mean serum follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH) were nearly stable. And their conclusion was that Pueraria mirifica was relatively safe and preliminarily alleviated the climacteric symptoms in perimenopausal women, but the data is insufficient to draw definite conclusions regarding the estrogenic effects.

Challenges in the conduct of Thai herbal scientific study: efficacy and safety of phytoestrogen, pueraria mirifica (Kwao Keur Kao), phase I, in the alleviation of climacteric symptoms in perimenopausal women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17710964

   

Sorry, I make the eyes bleed.

Hormones of the Reproductive System
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultrane...mones.html

[Dynseli]

unfortunately, this study is about cancer cells. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601661/ It says agigenin, naringenin, and Kaempferol don't downregulate PRB but progesterone does.

See section 'Kaempferol, apigenin, and naringenin did not downregulate PRA or PRB expression in T47D breast epithelial cells'

"Cells exposed to 1 μM P4 for 1.5 h (Figure 6A) or 16 h (Figure 6B) [progesterone] exhibited downregulation of PRB and more noticeably PRA, which was not observed with 100 μM [phytoprogestins] kaempferol, apigenin, and naringenin treatments."

Especially see 'Discussion' section