[EvaMarie]

Hi Lotus Believe it or not I was thinking about this towards the end of cutting 5 acres of grass here at the ranch today BTW got a lot of sun and some nice bikini top tan lines doing all that, cant quite pull off wearing the bottoms yet LOL
I think its good you brought this up

As one who started on and LOVED PM and NBE then decided I wanted to go all out with what NBE'ers here call "syn" HRT I thought Id ad my two cents for whatever its worth

First of all I want to say THANK YOU to all that put the info on NBE here and prove all the naysayers wrong every day, NBE does work

This place was a HUGE help to me when I was first sorting this stuff out and you tought me a lot about it all Lotus along with so many others here I dont have room to mention them all
I like the fact that not everyone here wants to go all the way to full transition like most TG boards... I think that alone helps people out when weighing such a serious issue like GD...

There are many synthetic DRUGS used with pharma HRT that were originally made to treat other conditions like prostate cancer or other medical conditions, yes those would be the RISKY but ALSO possibly very effective AA's for someone who wants to go all out full transition like spiro, bicalutimide, flutamide, dutasteride, finesteride, cypertone acetate ect.... Then there are synthectic progestins like medroxyprogesterone acetate and others, some AA's are progestins too... There are also forms of E that are "syn" like ethiniyl E or premarin and more too... It can all be very hard to get concrete info on all of these drugs and even doctors disagree or they have very little experience/info with/on HRT.... Even medically supervised TG patients are to an extent "lab rats", (see informed consent forms).... Doctors arent perfect, they do only "practice medicine" after all...

That said there are plenty of TG resources out there on all that and Im sure anyone seriously considering going that route is either seeing a doc or if they arent they are "reading till their eyes bleed" on everything they can find about "pharma" TG HRT... At least they SHOULD be IMHO...

Its mostly bio identical forms of good old E2 used these days and a lot of the info is out dated or its based on studies of already quite feminized post menopausal women... What could be more "natural" than that bio identical E2 and bio identical progesterone??? It cant get more "natural" than that right

So why not have a sub forum here??? It would help to have any info exchanged all in one spot here right???

I see issues with both NBE and pharma HRT as far as risks to health go but yes "pharma" HRT is obviously potentially much higher risk for potentially better feminization...

The fact is either way will take a long time and pharma HRT will not necessarily do it any faster than a good NBE regime... And there is pretty much ZERO info on combining NBE and pharma HRT anywhere but here...

Since all the docs here in the middle of nowhere western SD and Im sure elsewhere are VERY conservative with dosages..... Im sure MANY on "pharma" add a little extra trying to increase the results... I know IM GUILTY of that That is the reason I believe "Susans" just will not allow dosages to be discussed at all even though Id bet MANY there are self med...

Wether its "self med" pharma or NBE (also self med) really aint much different but there IS more info on the drugs and hormones used than herbs and there are trusted sources out there for getting pharma HRT without a prescription...

Moderation might be a problem with a pharma subforum but I doubt anything would get posted there thats not already out there

[Marina Kits]

I can see your point Lotus about separating the two types of breast enhancement (synthetic and natural) and I agree that the majority of discussion, or contributors at least, seem to be on synthetics lately. When I joined and in fact when I started mixing synthetics with herbals (before it was popular here) the topic of synthetics was pretty hush hush. Kind of, "seek not, forbid not" and the bulk of the discussion were kept almost purely on herbal methods. On the other hand, there are getting to be so many sub categories in the bio male section that it's getting a little ridiculous. It seems to me there are more categories than active contributors. ...I don't know what the solution is.

[Lotus]

Here's another confusing paradox,

Why is NBE revisited after finding out that synthetics didn't work for them, or even combined with synthetics?.

We have absolutely no research on it or the effects of combing PM with synthetics, and if that's the case what does the docs have to say about it?,

I imagine we've all withheld disclosing all the facts to our PCP's at one point or another (guilty).

Lotus,

My feelings aren't hurt by what you or anyone else has posted in this thread. I'm just left wondering what exactly is it that you're trying to say.

Are you on the fence now about using synthetics? Are you concerned about the direction this forum is heading? Do you just want to talk about synthetics compared to herbs? Please clarify what is it that is on your mind.

Thanks for the concern flamesabers, After having such a bad experience from the endo I went to it really soured my desire to do want to embark on HRT, also family was another big factor. I also considered as a last resort to order hormones over the internet, which I'm glad I didn't.

Nowadays you can't tell the real from the fake product, so who's to know what you are actually getting.....

[Lotus]

Wether its "self med" pharma or NBE (also self med) really aint much different but there IS more info on the drugs and hormones used than herbs and there are trusted sources out there for getting pharma HRT...

Moderation might be a problem with a pharma subforum but I doubt anything would get posted there thats not already out there

That's cool Eva,

I'm glad you put yer 2 cents in (defo more than .02 ,lol)

It would be shame if we can't provide some ground work here in the way of a sub forum for just such a discussion of research, coaching, support and all the other benefits we could possibly stuff inside of it.

[flamesabers]

Lotus,

I think your experiences may be food for thought for those who are considering synthetics. However, I think it's also important to note that others may have very different experiences with synthetics. Much like with herbs, NBE tends to be a very unique experience I think.

Kari,

I do agree with you about the excess of sub-categories in the bio-male forum. When I joined there were only two sub-categories: pictures and an archive. I think that worked pretty well for a while. I can understand the need for a gender identity forum, but I think now we've gotten enough to the point it's counter-productive. Nowadays, I rely on my email notifications of new threads and new posts to communicate in this forum instead of browsing each forum.

[Lotus]

I can see your point Lotus about separating the two types of breast enhancement (synthetic and natural) and I agree that the majority of discussion, or contributors at least, seem to be on synthetics lately. When I joined and in fact when I started mixing synthetics with herbals (before it was popular here) the topic of synthetics was pretty hush hush. Kind of, "seek not, forbid not" and the bulk of the discussion were kept almost purely on herbal methods. On the other hand, there are getting to be so many sub categories in the bio male section that it's getting a little ridiculous. It seems to me there are more categories than active contributors. ...I don't know what the solution is.

Thanks doodlebug, oops, kari (sorry)

Yes I agree it's a bit over the top with all the sub-categories, Perhaps we've evolved or are evolving to accommodate, which Eve has allowed (thanks) and become more then the typical forums out there, I dunno just my opinion.

[Lotus]

Notice who is notably absent here??

That's right, Sammie!!

Who has dropped off in her duties, lol.


If I know Sammie it would be something like "Now Lotus you know (insert quote here)"





For the record: let me do my best LBJ, I will not, nor will I accept!!, haha,

Actually, I won't be the one to request a new sub-forum (I've stated my support), but it's up to y'all.

[Lotus]

Thanks to all the senior members for their input!

[SarahSchilling]

LOL, for a male with breasts, you sure do like dividing everything up into very specific categories.

It seems silly to me, as people are going to do what they choose to do regardless. The idea that someone looking to grow breasts with herbs would have never considered or heard of people taking the pharma alternative seems far fetched.

As for these *gasp* "black market sources" of pharma drugs, they are imported from countries where said drugs do not require a prescription. Granted, the level of regulation in each country is a crapshoot...but to act as if herbs have better regulation is laughable, especially when it comes to imported PM from Thailand. Yeah, that's definitely as advertised, although it's unregulated. On the other hand, estradiol from India could be be anything, although it is regulated. Please. Being a consumer requires a certain amount of faith in any case, as even regulatory agencies are susceptible to corruption.

As for the "conjugated estrogen" nonsense, I haven't read of anyone taking that in quite some time. Drugs like premarin were proven to be dangerous, and are scarcely used today. However, the studies that proved it to be unsafe are often used to declare all animal based estrogens as being unsafe. As Eva said, pretty much everyone takes estradiol hemihydrate or estradiol valerate, which are bio-identical HUMAN hormones, as opposed to plant based phytoestrogens. Which of these substances would be more natural to find in substantial amounts in a human body? The term natural is more a matter of perspective than anything.

I don't think either herbs or pharma are very safe without regular blood testing. That doesn't stop anyone from doing whatever they please. Such are the inherent dangers of free will.

What exactly did this endo do to you anyway?

I'm sorry for whatever it was. Mine was kind of difficult as well...

Oh, and don't take this post as me being bitchy or disliking you Lotus. I just have a headache, post in an angsty manner at times, and am a little sensitive about popular misconceptions regarding my favorite drugs.

You do a great service to this forum, and if you want another subsection, that's fine by me!

[Lotus]

What exactly did this endo do to you anyway?

I'm sorry for whatever it was. Mine was kind of difficult as well...

Oh, and don't take this post as me being bitchy or disliking you Lotus. I just have a headache, post in an angsty manner at times, and am a little sensitive about popular misconceptions regarding my favorite drugs.

You do a great service to this forum, and if you want another subsection, that's fine by me!

Sarah, you bitchy?, I don't buy it!.

I think they got my endo guy out of 'moth balls', only Sammie knows about the details, and she's not telling, right Sammie. let's just say he was a butthole...

I agree with flamesabers that we all know the risks, (I should rephrase) those who do their own research know the risks. I know I know, Sara I think you'd say something like this, If your gonna fuck up your life there's quicker ways to do it, right?.

I think of it this way, if more people did their own research we see less posts asking for our advice. For some senior members the advice is given freely and in earnest, which from the most part is based on experience, which is why they ask right?.

I'm not gonna hurt ya (lol) with all the shit I've got on the research about the whole herbal vs pharma crap, it's all been (continues) to be hashed out amongst the experts. (And I'm no expert).

Besides, who doesn't like a tidy house?, lol. from chaos comes order.

Correct me if I'm wrong, when purchasing from overseas we don't use our regular CC's right, so we go out and buy pre-paid's cards. And if that's the case we do we trust our health to them when they say it's legitimate hormones?, no really I'd like to know?

Sorry bout the headache, not trying to add to it.