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What happened to Natural Breast Enlargment?

#41

(17-06-2014, 12:16 AM)ClaraKay Wrote:  
(17-06-2014, 12:01 AM)flamesabers Wrote:  
(16-06-2014, 02:04 PM)ClaraKay Wrote:  So is that the question on the table -- to have a separate section for discussing prescription drugs? Why not put it to a vote?

I'm against having a separate section for synthetics. I would rather not see the board get divided up into the herbs and HRT group. If there was a separate section, consider how many active members solely use herbs or synthetics. I for example wouldn't probably venture much into a synthetics forum on the simple basis I don't use them. I think the same could be said for those who strictly use synthetics.

I think a reason why the gender identity forum has worked so well is because the vast majority of bio-males pursuing NBE are also transgender to some extent. I doubt a synthetics section could be integrated this successfully. If we do have a synthetics section, what would follow? Would we go on to create a separate picture and program section for synthetics?

Separation in some areas are very practical I think, such as having a separate section for bio-males. Females and males typically have distinctly different hormone levels, starting points for NBE, expectations, etc. I don't see such a noticeable difference for herbs and synthetics.

Again, the voice of reason. I agree with Flame. I don't want to see us segregate the synners.....yes, I'm one of them now. Don't make me a second class BNer.

Clara Smile

(16-06-2014, 02:04 PM)ClaraKay Wrote:  So is that the question on the table -- to have a separate section for discussing prescription drugs? Why not put it to a vote?

Clara Huh

Pretty short vote!.
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#42

I would like to ask the members who chose to try synthetics if you are seeing more success with BE? Do you grow boobs faster? Is it worth the risk? PM is a pretty powerful herb with many benefits if taken in low dose. It has worked wonders for many members here in regards of BE, antiaging etc.

Is it really necessary to use synthetics and increase the risk of getting cancer? Huh No offense, I would just like to understand it. I took the birth control pill for many years, but I was young and naive when I started taking it and if I could I would turn back the time and never touch this stuff again...
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#43

(17-06-2014, 02:58 AM)peggy Wrote:  I would like to ask the members who chose to try synthetics if you are seeing more success with BE? Do you grow boobs faster? Is it worth the risk? PM is a pretty powerful herb with many benefits if taken in low dose. It has worked wonders for many members here in regards of BE, antiaging etc.

Is it really necessary to use synthetics and increase the risk of getting cancer? Huh No offense, I would just like to understand it. I took the birth control pill for many years, but I was young and naive when I started taking it and if I could I would turn back the time and never touch this stuff again...

Yes, the pharma meds are stronger, but even if they weren't, I take issue with the supposition that the herbs are safer than prescription HRT when taken under the care of an endocrinologist. First, we don't know the long term risks of taking large doses of PM, for example. The research hasn't been done to be sure of that. Second, the quality of the herbs is not being monitored in most cases by an objective third party or government agency. Third, many are taking the herbs blindly, that is, without regular blood testing and hormone level monitoring. How can that be inherently safer?

I was attracted to herbs at the beginning, because I could experiment with rebalancing my sex hormones without having to 'come out' to my physician about my gender dysphoria. Now that I'm committed to at least a partial transition, I prefer to work with a doctor and use the meds that they are accustomed to prescribing. It bothers me that the phyto-estrogen in PM, miroestrol, doesn't show up on a clinical estrogen test.

I maybe took it wrong, but I got the feeling reading this thread, that those of us switching to pharma were being pushed aside because that's not what this forum is about.

I know that the OP is miffed at me for expressing my opinion, and I probably did it in a way that invited confrontation, which I regret, but I still hold to my view that a separate sub forum is not necessary or desirable.

Clara
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#44

I use both at the same time and it's my opinion that I get more results from herbals than the synthetics. When I've reduced my PM dosage by as little as 500mg per day and replaced it with 2mg of synthetic E (a low dose), my sensations almost disappear. To be fair to the, all-synthetic camp, I've never done a course of purely synthetics at "normal" doses. I personally don't think it's necessary or even better to use synthetics over herbals. The only rationale I can find for using BOTH myself is that I don't have all my eggs in one basket. If I was forced to choose one or the other, I'd probably take the herbals.

Also, having pondered it for a while now, I'm opposed to creating yet another sub forum. Our community is too small to add additional partitions, I have friends in both camps and I already find it difficult to stay abreast with all that gets discussed in all the different "rooms" of the bio male section much less the forum as a whole. I'm completely out of touch with who's new around here because the "introductions" section is one that I just don't frequent. We used to introduce ourselves in the main page. If anything, I'd advocate for consolidating some of the ones we already have.
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#45

(17-06-2014, 03:56 AM)kari leigh Wrote:  I'm completely out of touch with who's new around here because the "introductions" section is one that I just don't frequent. We used to introduce ourselves in the main page. If anything, I'd advocate for consolidating some of the ones we already have.

Same here. I occasionally say hello to newcomers, but it's not like it used to be. Also, I'm not sure what the "other appearance issues" forum is for. I must have missed the memo on this one! Sad
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#46

(17-06-2014, 03:28 AM)ClaraKay Wrote:  Yes, the pharma meds are stronger, but even if they weren't, I take issue with the supposition that the herbs are safer than prescription HRT when taken under the care of an endocrinologist.

I disagree. Of course it's better to take HRT drugs under the care of an endo (instead of buying them overseas), BUT it doesn't make those meds safer only because an endo prescribed them. They still might have the same side effects and risks. I do agree that also herbs might have side effects if taken in large doses and/or without making any research.

(17-06-2014, 03:28 AM)ClaraKay Wrote:  First, we don't know the long term risks of taking large doses of PM, for example. The research hasn't been done to be sure of that. Second, the quality of the herbs is not being monitored in most cases by an objective third party or government agency. Third, many are taking the herbs blindly, that is, without regular blood testing and hormone level monitoring. How can that be inherently safer?

Women in Thailand have used PM for well over one hundred years, specifically for its rejuvenating qualities. Of course these women didn't take "Ainterol X-treme spray" or whatever its called but many take PM as an whole food in moderate doses. If PM would be as risky as HRT estrogen, everybody would know it by now. But it's the opposite, it actually can PREVENT cancer. However it's a FACT that HRT drugs are dangerous and studies confirm it. I agree that neither herbs nor synthetics should be taken without regular blood or saliva testing. But does every person who take HRT drugs have regular medical check-ups? I doubt it.

(17-06-2014, 03:28 AM)ClaraKay Wrote:  I was attracted to herbs at the beginning, because I could experiment with rebalancing my sex hormones without having to 'come out' to my physician about my gender dysphoria. Now that I'm committed to at least a partial transition, I prefer to work with a doctor and use the meds that they are accustomed to prescribing. It bothers me that the phyto-estrogen in PM, miroestrol, doesn't show up on a clinical estrogen test.

Blood tests are not very reliable. You should make a saliva test for estradiol and estriol and it might show up there.

Peggy
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#47

(17-06-2014, 01:03 PM)peggy Wrote:  However it's a FACT that HRT drugs are dangerous and studies confirm it.

I've been looking for conclusive evidence that HRT drugs are dangerous, and so far, I have not been able to find it. It's true that 10 years ago the Women's Health Initiative called into question the safety of HRT in menopausal women, but even that study has been called into question lately. Apparently, the risk is age dependent. Plus studies of this type are all directed at genetic females, not transwomen. I haven't found any studies highlighting the risks of HRT (pharma or herbal) in transsexual women. I'm not saying there isn't a risk, but I would assume the risk would vary based on family history and other factors that a physician could mitigate to some extent.

There's also no study of the short or long term effects of using herbs to accomplish MTF transition. I suspect you are right that taking a small daily dose of PM is likely to be healthful, not harmful. But, many of us go far beyond a small dose. I think it's unwise to assume that herbs are automatically safer than pharma drugs. And that would be especially the case without medical supervision.

The simple fact is we don't know the long term effects of using herbs to radically shift the sex hormone balance in bio-males. We here at BN are self-subscribed test subjects in an experiment, the outcome of which is yet to be known. Huh

Clara Smile

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#48

Hi Clara,

I just did a quick google search and found this:

Postmenopausal hormone treatment (hormone 'replacement' therapy): ...Recent clinical trials have examined postmenopausal treatment with estrogen and progesterone and found that it leads to an increase in the risk of breast cancer and is unlikely to prevent or benefit heart and blood vessel disease. Major health organizations have recommended discontinuation of its use for health promotion and and most disease prevention purpoes.

Source: http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/factshee...trogen.cfm

And on another website:

Key Points

* Much of the evidence about risks and benefits of menopausal hormone therapy (MHT) comes from two randomized clinical trials that were conducted as part of the Women’s Health Initiative.

* Although MHT provides short-term benefits, such as relief from hot flashes and vaginal dryness, several health concerns are associated with its use, including increased risk for certain cancers.

* The U.S. Food and Drug Administration currently advises women to use MHT for the shortest time and at the lowest dose possible to control the symptoms of menopause.

5. What are the health risks of MHT?

Before the WHI studies began, it was known that MHT with estrogen alone increased the risk of endometrial cancer in women with an intact uterus. It was for this reason that, in the WHI trials, women randomly assigned to receive hormone therapy took estrogen plus progestin if they had a uterus and estrogen alone if they didn’t have one.

Research from the WHI studies has shown that MHT is associated with the following harms:

* Urinary incontinence. Use of estrogen plus progestin increased the risk of urinary incontinence (1).

* Dementia. Use of estrogen plus progestin doubled the risk of developing dementia among postmenopausal women age 65 and older (5).

* Stroke, blood clots, and heart attack. Women who took either combined hormone therapy or estrogen alone had an increased risk of stroke, blood clots, and heart attack (1, 3). For women in both groups, however, this risk returned to normal levels after they stopped taking the medication (2, 4).

* Breast cancer. Women who took estrogen plus progestin were more likely to be diagnosed with breast cancer (6). The breast cancers in these women were larger and more likely to have spread to the lymph nodes by the time they were diagnosed (6). The number of breast cancers in this group of women increased with the length of time that they took the hormones and decreased after they stopped taking the hormones (7).

These studies also showed that both combination and estrogen-alone hormone use made mammography less effective for the early detection of breast cancer (6, 8). Women taking hormones had more repeat mammograms to check on abnormalities found in a screening mammogram and more breast biopsies to determine whether abnormalities detected in mammograms were cancer (6, 8).

The rate of death from breast cancer among those taking estrogen plus progestin was 2.6 per 10,000 women per year, compared with 1.3 per 10,000 women per year among those taking the placebo (9). The rate of death from any cause after a diagnosis of breast cancer was 5.3 per 10,000 women per year among women taking combined hormone therapy, compared with 3.4 per 10,000 women per year among those taking the placebo (9).

* Lung cancer. Women who took combined hormone therapy had the same risk of lung cancer as women who took the placebo (10). However, among those who were diagnosed with lung cancer, women who took estrogen plus progestin were more likely to die of the disease than those who took the placebo.

There were no differences in the number of cases or the number of deaths from lung cancer among women who took estrogen alone compared with those among women who took the placebo (11).

* Colorectal cancer. In the initial study report, women taking combined hormone therapy had a lower risk of colorectal cancer than women who took the placebo (1). However, the colorectal tumors that arose in the combined hormone therapy group were more advanced at detection than those in the placebo group...

Source: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/facts...l-hormones

But you are right, also phytoestrogens should be taken in moderate doses. It might take longer to grow breasts, but combined with massage and NB it's a safer way to increase breast size.

Could you please show me the website which states that the above study has been called into question lately? Thanks. Smile
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#49

I think why not add a section to methods with pueraria, massage and pumping rather than separate the bio male section about it because in a way women sometimes try birth control can be used as nbe so that's a synthetic section wouldn't split bio males like your worrying but it would be useful to bio women too to have more info about it in methods I am sure I see women use estrogel and synthetic progesterone creams too without knowing if there are any risks so a section of information and risks of all kinds of synthetics would be very useful information to add to this forum.
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#50

(17-06-2014, 03:14 PM)peggy Wrote:  [abridged]
Hi Clara,
Could you please show me the website which states that the above study has been called into question lately? Thanks. Smile

Sure, Peggy, WebMD has a good overall summary of the recent reassessment of the WHI study done in 2002.

HRT and breast cancer risk re-assessed

To me it's very telling. Since, apparently, the health risk depends on when a bio-woman starts HRT (more than 10 years past menopause means a slightly higher risk), the notion that these studies can be used to assess the health risks of HRT for transwomen seems a stretch at best.

What pops out to me is that generalizing a study finding so as to scare people into avoiding something (HRT) that can on balance improve one's quality of life, is doing a disservice. The risk of cancer and other health problems is affected by many factors which vary widely from person to person. It should be a decision between you and your doctor whether the added risk of doing HRT is significant or not. I would think that one's family history of breast, ovarian, or uterine cancer would be a far more important consideration in a decision to do HRT.

But, again, for MTF transsexuals, the whole matter is a BIG unknown.

Clara Smile

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