[ct23]

Some of you veterans, I would like some input on a program I am about to start I'm wanting to use PM, White Peony, and Reishi. Now I have some pygeum and spearmint too but I felt they would hurt my program rather than help it, based on Lotus' threads. I'm open to any thoughts and suggestions. I'm going for full body feminization as best I can without going on pharms... Yet.

[flamesabers]

Hello,

Of the items you've listed, I've only used pm and spearmint. I think they're both quite effective for the goal you have. What are your concerns with pygeum and spearmint?

I think a slow and simple approach works best. Why not spend some time on just pm and go from there?

[GoneGirl]

I started on just PM for the first 4 months of NBE, then added spearmint followed shortly by pygeum. The combo seemed to work well. I switched to pharma recently, though, because I plan to go under the care of an endo soon. Most docs are clueless about herbals.

Clara

[ct23]

Hey Flame,
I've been keeping up with your progress since like month 2 for you. You're an inspiration! The reason I'm not sure about pygeum or spearmint for the regiment in wanting to do is because I'm wanting to take pm (for obvious reasons lol) the white Peony as a strong proaromotase and the Reishi to prevent testosterone from becoming dht so it can be converted to estrogen. Now if I've read and studied Lotus' posts correctly the spearmint will only lower free t and not affect total t or dht.. Am I correct in this? And is free t what is converted to estrogen from aromotase? Also the pygeum lowers both estrogen and testosterone correct? So that would hurt my conversion. Thoughts? I took pm for a bit and it worked pretty well. Then I was taking pm, spearmint, fenugreek, & pygeum.

[GoneGirl]

Also the pygeum lowers both estrogen and testosterone correct?

Pygeum is an anti-5 alpha reductace herb. 5ar is needed to metabolize free T into DHT. I liken it to finasteride which is used to stop male pattern baldness. I wasn't aware that it affected the aromatization of free T into estrogen. Did you mean to say prolactin, an enzyme needed to stimulate milk production?
Clara

[Lotus]

Hi ct23,

Spearmint-anti-androgenic properties reduce the level of free testosterone in the blood, while leaving total testosterone and DHEAS unaffected.

Why suppress free T?, it's bio-available to convert to estrogen from Aromatase.


Using Spearmint won't get it done, currently imo it limits growth as would SP, if we want growth you have to look beyond the norm. My pics show the results, my aerolas have increased to 2 1/4 inches, 6 cm. I stalled at one point and I looked at the program for improvements. That's when I saw the potential of Aromatase and free T, I had to eliminate all herbs that reduced free T and Aromatase Inhibitors AI's, which spearmint did.

So Im currently at 10.5 cup size, what's the size?

I understand the reluctance to buy off on this strategy, I've also found this to be another opportunity I'm looking into:

The androgen receptor is most closely related to the progesterone receptor, and progestins in higher dosages can block the androgen receptor.

Testosterone is secreted in the testes in men and in the ovaries in women. Small amounts are also secreted in the adrenal glands. Testosterone is derived from cholesterol. The levels of testosterone in men range between 350 and 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dl). After the age of 40 these normal levels start dropping by roughly 1 per cent a year.

In the blood stream testosterone circulates in great percentage bound to so called binding proteins. Sex Hormone Binding Globulin or SHBG is the one that concerns us the greatest. Why? Because this is the main reason why testosterone might not be available to reach the cell receptor. When testosterone gets attached to SHBG, it is no longer able to perform its anabolic functions.

I've never felt the need to make comparisons or insult someones program, nor have I pushed my program at the expense of others. I'm also not suggesting my program has been in someway superior to others, (its insulting, never gonna go there).

I've been off NBE for about 3 weeks, I haven't lost anything, the reason I should point out is that I'm having back surgery on Saturday. I didn't feel the need to disclose the surgery, (I don't why) only a few close friends knew. But since I pointed out the 3 week break and also that I completed my NBE goal.


Good luck ct23, I'm here to help you and others if needed.

[GoneGirl]

Lotus,
I've been reading your posts for a while now, and you seem to saying not to attempt to reduce your free T level. Rather, increase aromatase and inhibit 5-alpha reductace instead. The reason being that aromatase converts free T into estrogen, and 5-alpha reductace is needed to convert free T to DHT. Makes sense.

But, that isn't the way a female endo system works. In a female, free T production is quite low, so DHT production is low. Plenty of estrogen is produced by the ovaries.

So, why not mimic the female body? That is, cut the supply of free T way down to female levels, starving the 5ar DHT factory, and externally supply adequate estrogen to provide for breast growth? This can all accomplished by just boosting one's E level to a female level which will automatically cutting off T production in the testes.

It can all be done by just taking PM, in most cases. Adding Spearmint and a 5ar inhibitor merely hastens the shifting of sex hormone balance.

I don't understand how your approach is better. Can you explain in simple terms?

Clara

[Lotus]

Lotus,
I've been reading your posts for a while now, and you seem to saying not to attempt to reduce your free T level. Rather, increase aromatase and inhibit 5-alpha reductace instead. The reason being that aromatase converts free T into estrogen, and 5-alpha reductace is needed to convert free T to DHT. Makes sense.

But, that isn't the way a female endo system works. In a female, free T production is quite low, so DHT production is low. Plenty of estrogen is produced by the ovaries.

So, why not mimic the female body? That is, cut the supply of free T way down to female levels, starving the 5ar DHT factory, and externally supply adequate estrogen to provide for breast growth? This can all accomplished by just boosting one's E level to a female level which will automatically cutting off T production in the testes.

It can all be done by just taking PM, in most cases. Adding Spearmint and a 5ar inhibitor merely hastens the shifting of sex hormone balance.

I don't understand how your approach is better. Can you explain in simple terms?

Clara

Sure, the best way I can explain is just to say we (bio-males) don't have plumbing, bio-males only way to grow breasts and to feminize is through what?. (In the absence of herbs, pharma, etc.).

I'll explain in detail when I have more time, tying up loose ends.

Ps. Bio-females also have the ability to utilize Aromatase.

[ct23]

Thank Lotus!

That's why I felt spearmint would hurt my program because I'm wanting to convert my free t to estrogen and prevent the free t from converting to dht. Pygeum will also hurt my program too if I'm trying to rely on converting my own testosteron

[GoneGirl]

Pygeum will also hurt my program too if I'm trying to rely on converting my own testosteron

No, ct. Pygeum, Reishi, and Chinese Skullcap are all 5 alpha reductace inhibitors. They act to lower your DHT level, which is good. They leave free T available for conversion to estrogen or for binding to SHBG. Inhibiting DHT metabolism is ALWAYS a good idea if you want to feminize your body.

Clara