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Are we TGs both gay and straight?

#1

I found this at TransGenderCare.com and found it good description of the M/F transgender with a twist concerning sexual orientation:

Physically Male/Subjective Female Individual (M/F)

Because a child's greatest desire is to be normal (like everybody else), the great majority of M/F individuals create an artificial self which meets this goal. They are often so successful at this that they not only fool everyone else but themselves as well — at least part of the time, in some way.

Once created, M/F gender folk live in their male role — a 3-D personality with its own goals, likes and dislikes, values, hobbies, etc. Although indistinguishable from the "real thing," it isn't themselves. It is an artificial creation for them to be able to fit in. This is achieved at the expense of denying, locking away, their natural female subjective gender. Their desire to be "normal" has denied them their natural selves. But, as the nagging reality of the deception becomes harder and harder to suppress, one has to express their true subjective gender somehow, in some way.

For most, dressing is the obvious compromise. If one cannot be female, one can at least express femininity. But the more one expresses one's true self, the desire for more becomes greater. Some individuals continue expressing themselves more and more, others panic and purge only to start again later.

One's gender identity classification (crossdresser, transgenderist, transsexual, etc.) is due to each individual's adjustment to first the conflict between one's subjective gender (Self-map) and their need to be "normal," and later to the conflict between one's subjective gender and their "male persona." There is no objective "best solution," only a subjective, personal best solution.

After years or decades of living, working and building within their male persona, it is often too "expensive" to give up the life, perks, family, etc., one has built up—in order to go back to basics and have an emotionally 12 year old girl grow up—and live in a once male 40+ year old body.

However far one is able to go toward dismantling the male persona and allowing their female subjective gender to develop, one generally seems to have the following three levels of transition:

1. Recognition that one's Self Map (subjective gender) is different from one's Physical Gender —This can take the form of seeing one's self as a "woman trapped in a man's body," a need to express one's "feminine side," etc. This stage is mainly concerned with physical/surface changes such as crossdressing, passing, makeup, wigs, etc. In this first part, many gender folk don't even venture from their own home and often have a juvenile (before age 15) and later, an adult phase. The so called "Primary Transsexual" is an individual who never constructs a male persona and therefore never accepts their male genitals or challenges their female Self Map/subjective gender.

2. Accepting one's Self-Map (Subjective Gender)—This stage is more varied than the first and consists of changing one's life to fit one's Self-Map. These changes may only involve bringing one's significant other and loved one's into their dressing behavior and expanding their activities ("crossdressers") or continuing to express their Self Map and dismantle their male persona by starting hormones, electrolysis and public dressing. One develops towards a "comfort level" with one's subjective gender and its conflict with their male persona.

3. Becoming one's True Self — This is the last but unfortunately least experienced part of transitioning. This is the stage when that little child trapped inside an artificial persona in order to fit in breaks free, grows up and has their own life — often with markedly different values, temperament and interests.

It has been my observation that the female subjective self needs little help in growing up and developing if the overpowering weight of the male persona is removed from it. The M/F individual has spent years, decades developing, reinforcing and living in their male role. Dismantling the male persona takes a great deal of time, effort and outside help. In those individuals identified as "transsexual," their subjective sense of happiness and success is directly parallel with the degree they have dismantled their male identity, not on their age, physical size, hormones, surgery, etc.

Another interesting aspect of a female subjective gender with a male physical gender is the concept of Sexual Orientation. To classify a M/F individual as either homosexual or heterosexual would be equally false. If one views their gender as that established by their subjective gender, then having sex with a physical/ subjective female would make them homosexual (lesbian). But, if one viewed their actions from their physical gender, they would be committing a heterosexual act. In other words, no matter which gender they have sexual relations with, they are simultaneously committing both a homosexual and heterosexual act.

I believe this example illustrates the need for us to see our gender as a matrix of male/ female expression and not as an either/or classification based on the appearance of our physical genitalia.


Seems to address some concerns that wives have about being forced into a lesbian relationship with their TG husbands. It all depends on your point of view.

Comments?

Clara
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#2

I found this a very interesting post. Coincidentally (Clara, we seem to be good at coincidences!) the highlighted paragraph at the end echoes a conclusion I was coming to yesterday. As a 'transgenderist' who very much wishes to stay married, yesterday was not a very good day for us. After travelling half way across the continent the day before and arriving home to unexpected problems, at least one due to a bad oversight on my part, J was having a down day (saying that with what you have told me about your gender variance, I think you may have stolen my marriage).

We have always both believed that marriage is something that requires continuing work, repairs and maintenance, and this has never been truer than under our present circumstances. I believe that we have built something together over more than 50 years which is no longer based on just gender or sexuality and renders any issue of sexual orientation no longer really relevant, and that our marriage is what we make of it - we can break it or we may have to modify it but I do hope we can't steal it from each other. And today is another day.

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#3

Annie,

I, too, believe that one's marriage needs daily attention to ensure its continuation and provide for the well-being of each partner. I guess the hardest part of accepting a husband's transgenderism is the prospect of finding yourself married to someone else.

My wife has voiced her sadness at 'losing' the husband she loved very much, and having a strange woman take his place uninvited. That perspective has been changing over the months as she comes to realize that this strange woman is not that different, and in many ways is better, than the husband she married. It eases, but doesn't eliminate, the pain which she has been forced to bear, even as she's heartened by how much happier I am now that I'm finally able to experience life as my true self.

I hope that J will come to see things the same way. Don't despair.

Hugs,
Clara
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#4

(19-07-2014, 01:21 PM)ClaraKay Wrote:  Annie,

I, too, believe that one's marriage needs daily attention to ensure its continuation and provide for the well-being of each partner. But, OMG, I'm perplexed. I read your post over several times and cannot understand what you mean by:

"you may have stolen my marriage)."

I certainly hope not. Please explain.

Clara

Just to avoid any possible misunderstanding before I start, it was my DW, O&O, or whatever inadequate identifier one needs to use (so I sometimes fall back on 'J' which is less impersonal), that made the comment, and left me puzzling it out. We've had some more (amicable) discussion since, and while I may not yet have fully appreciated her point of view, here is my take. Firstly, my disclosure makes it impossible for her any longer to regard what we have as a conventional text book marriage. Secondly, although she fully believes in the reality of my gender problems, she has now some degree of mistrust as to the motivation of some of my behaviour towards her, which she suspects might not be quite as altruistic as she had previously thought, thus weakening the integrity of the avowed marriage contract. This I think can be interpreted as being allied to her suspicion of possible manipulation, which has also been an issue between us. She does admit that human relations are impossible without some degree of mutual manipulation, but I think that she sees the introduction of gender identity issues into our relationship as being in itself unacceptably manipulative, and in effect hijacking her position within the marriage contract. This is very much in accord with what I have read of the feelings of some other wives. While the husband may have gained some relief from his problems, she has been locked in with them, and the balance of the marriage contract has been changed to her disadvantage.

Not very lucid, I fear, but the best I can do off the cuff.

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#5

(19-07-2014, 09:02 PM)AnnieBL Wrote:  
(19-07-2014, 01:21 PM)ClaraKay Wrote:  Annie,

I, too, believe that one's marriage needs daily attention to ensure its continuation and provide for the well-being of each partner. But, OMG, I'm perplexed. I read your post over several times and cannot understand what you mean by:

"you may have stolen my marriage)."

I certainly hope not. Please explain.

Clara

Just to avoid any possible misunderstanding before I start, it was my DW, O&O, or whatever inadequate identifier one needs to use (so I sometimes fall back on 'J' which is less impersonal), that made the comment, and left me puzzling it out.

Yes, Annie, when I later rereading your post after two cups of black coffee cleared my head of morning sleepiness, I realized that it was J that made the comment. I edited my post as you see it now.

I'm not sure about the manipulation angle in your interaction with J. How is divulging an embarrassing, if not shameful and potentially harmful secret designed to manipulate?

Clara
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#6

(19-07-2014, 09:47 PM)ClaraKay Wrote:  I'm not sure about the manipulation angle in your interaction with J. How is divulging an embarrassing, if not shameful and potentially harmful secret designed to manipulate?

Clara

I should have said 'unavoidably' rather than 'unacceptably'. But I certainly realized before I did it that it had to affect our relationship, even if I didn't know in what manner.



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#7

i am 'bi' - i wouldnt consider the average mtf to be gay as they are re aligning their body to match their mind. i am pan-sexual i love across genders .i have noticed around my state that even the tg/ts are outcasts amongst the GLBT community. mostly because we are seen as a 'waste' of a penis etc . gay men dont want or understand us and hard core lesbians, dont want us. so we stand alone amongst peers. i am not saying this is absolute but is what i have seen firsthand. the only ones who really want us is for the pre-op situation of the 007 penis (secret agent transsexual) so they can be gay without being found out.

what sickens me is the views that 'shemale' (i detest that term) has portrayed us ts to be. i can say i know how Gg's(genetic girls) feel about being objectified as a sexual object and how possessive men can be about 'owning' their females. such 'admirers' as they call themselves usally turn out to be pervs. which is mainly why i remain alone. i want to be loved for my mind and spirit not just for my body
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#8

Having now spent a lot of time among other girls and on a variety of support sites, I am coming believe that for many TG, where a supportive spouse is not, or never was part of the equation, in many cases individuals are usually forced to choose between two options. Since it is rare for a M2F Tg (unless they are exceptionally blessed in the beauty department) to locate (after transition) either a willing and interested GG or a willing and interested bio male (post-op, that is.....plenty of "admirerers pre-op, if that is your cup of tea) as a potential life partner, the choice seems to boil down to solitude or a relationship with another tgurl.
Sad but so often true.
Enough to give anyone pause.
What price are you willing to pay to be happy?
What compromises will you make?
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#9

I think a gender-neutral terminology to describe sexuality would be to use terms like Androphilia and Gynephilia. For me I identify most with being a demisexual. Since I'm single, my challenge is finding someone who is open-minded about my ambiguous gender identity.

Samantha,

I'm intrigued about your description of options, particularly the last one about a relationship with a t-girl. A life of solitude is one possibility I have contemplated. It would be nice to have a lifelong partner, but only so long as the relationship is mutually enjoyable. As for having a relationship with a t-girl, it could work I suppose so long as we're compatible personality wise and she prefers cuddling over sex.
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#10

All i can tell you, Flame, is that I now have met and spoken to many tg individuals who find themselves unable to locate any relationship other than with another tgirl.
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