Something occurred to me the other day that frightened me quite a bit. I was standing in front of a full-length mirror after showering and I realized that my body (from the neck down) looks decidedly more female than male.

I know that a lot of us on this forum are striving for that (and early on I was too). However, now that my GD is under control (thanks to PM) I have been content to remain male and intend to do so for the sake of my marriage and family. Suddenly I find that I am actually in transition (whether I want to be or not).

I'm wondering how far this will go. From what others have posted it's obvious than some people are much more sensitive to the effects of PM than others (and I am certainly very sensitive). In the 18 months I have been on PM (averaging 1500 mg/day except for a few cold-turkey breaks) I have developed into a 36B and can no longer hide the growth w/o compression garments (or unless I wear very loose clothing). My waistline is definitely female (located a few inches above my belly button) and my waist to hip ratio is now about 0.78 (which is the average WHR for women in the USA... the male average is 0.89). My body hair is now almost non-existent and I'm doing nothing to remove it (no shaving or waxing). I have lost a LOT of muscle mass, especially in my arms, chest, and back.

I have also been actively losing weight (since I had back surgery 7 months ago I need to keep my weight down to aid in the recovery). I've lost about 15 pounds over the past 6 weeks and weight loss seems to accentuate my more female shape. I still need to lose another 10 pounds or so (according to my doctor) for the best result for my recovery. That would put me at about 165 lbs (I'm about 5' 10" tall). I'm concerned that losing the additional 10 pounds will really enhance the female shape even beyond where it is now.

The only NBE herb I am taking is PM (no anti-androgens and no other phytoestrogens). I'm not using progesterone either. I had really thought that a moderate level of PM, no other NBE herbs, and no phrama (I've never taken any pharma HRT) would not result in the level of physical feminization I am now experiencing.

Anyone else have a similar experience? I am being overly paranoid?

Misty

Hi Misty,
Yours and my motivation for starting PM and the results we've achieved are very similar, although it's only taken 9 months for me, and I have switched over to pharma HRT a little over two months ago, having decided to transition as far as I determine is necessary. I never intended to transition, I didn't want to grow large breasts (although the idea of it was attractive to me), and I reduced my PM dosage down to 1500, then to 1000 mg per day in an attempt to slow the obvious physical changes that were happening very quickly. I'm 5'-9" and lost 15 lbs. to 160. I can't hide my breasts anymore, and my female personality has blossomed lately. I have become rather open about my expression, wearing androgynous clothes, wearing nail polish, etc. I don't know if I'm transsexual, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

My experience shows how things can snowball from innocent beginnings to a full blown transition to feminine expression on a daily basis if one is TG/TS. You have reason to be concerned, as I was. The potential for upheaval in your life is anything but benign and inconsequential. You are at the point of having to make a decision to continue, or stop this progression, if that is even possible. It wasn't for me. I've had to face the fact that I am solidly transgender and need to find my rightful place in the world with a gender expression that is authentic for my internal gender.

I don't know how easy that will be for you; I don't know you or your circumstances very well, but if you want to correspond privately for whatever help that might offer, please feel free.

Good luck and hugs,

Clara

Misty I think this is to be expected. It is certainly in line with my experience. My waist to hip ratio is the same as yours, at .79.
It is kind of funny.
For months I have stated categorically that beginning a program of herbal breast enlargement, using PM, is the same thing as beginning HRT, with the only exception being the speed.
Many members grew somewhat upset with me for "preaching" that NBE is a form of transition. I almost left the board permanentl because of flack from various self deluding members "only here to grow some breasts". Lol
I am not pointing a finger at you honey so dont mistake me.
But yours is just one more example from the many I have seen here over the years, confirming the truth of my warning.
I would not despair. If you are concerned about presenting male then simply cut back or eliminate the pm, and your body will slowly return to normal albeit with larger than normal breasts.
Short of surgery and breast growth, nothing is irreversible

Hugs

Sammie

Hey Misty,

I have a similar story Misty. When I first came to BN (a month after you), I was 200lbs and 6' tall. Despite taking PM, an assortment of minor herbs and even a little pharma, I never noticed much feminization. Since April of this year however, I lost 40 lbs and it was a little eerie how, as I "melted" what remained was somewhat feminine in appearance. My wife very much agrees with me and in fact commented on it when I asked her to look at me naked and tell me what see saw. Personally I'm not sure which is more responsible for the change but I suspect, things were always changing under my extra fat (PM would be that cause of that IMHO) and when the extra weight disappeared and the "curtain" was pulled back... tadaa!, there I was. For me, it's a welcome change but I can understand why it would be alarming to you.

I agree with you, Sammie, when you state that except for some existing breast tissue, everything is reversible. The point I was trying to make was that deciding to stop HRT for good can be very difficult when you are transgender. Removing the estrogenic effects of PM, will often produce an unsettling psychological reaction similar to the gender dysphoria that prompted the venture into herbal HRT to begin with. Seeing the remasculinization of one's body can be very psychologically disturbing for a transgender. Truth is, having a cross gender identity cannot be easily compromised. That's why it causes so much angst among us Ts, and invariably bubbles to the surface in a desperate plea for help.

Clara

My experience shows how things can snowball from innocent beginnings to a full blown transition to feminine expression on a daily basis if one is TG/TS. You have reason to be concerned, as I was. The potential for upheaval in your life is anything but benign and inconsequential. You are at the point of having to make a decision to continue, or stop this progression, if that is even possible.

Clara,

Thanks for the response. I do believe I am further down the TS scale than a lot of bio-males who frequent here, and there was a time when I thought I would have no choice but eventually transition regardless of the heavy cost (the GD was so great). The funny thing was that while I tried to combat the GD by increasing testosterone, the increased T actually accelerated the GD dramatically. I was relieved when the PM caused it to subside.

I have tried to stop or reduce the PM and find that the GD comes roaring back (which in turn causes me to resume the PM in search of feminization). I guess it's fair to say I am "addicted" to the PM at this point and stopping isn't an option.

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do at this point!

But yours is just one more example from the many I have seen here over the years, confirming the truth of my warning.

I would not despair. If you are concerned about presenting male then simply cut back or eliminate the pm, and your body will slowly return to normal albeit with larger than normal breasts.

Hi Sammie,

There is truth in your assertions, and as you say I am part of the proof.

I'm not in despair (yet anyway). My problem lies in that I can't stop the PM (see my explanation to Clara above). I'm also afraid that anything I do to try and mitigate the effects (like intentionally boosting T) will also negate the calming affect and will simply cause the GD to resume. I also do not even like myself when I'm not on PM -- I'm irritable, snarky, and somewhat unlikeable. My wife definitely prefers me on PM for the effects it has on my personality (but not the physical changes). Still, given the choice, I think she would encourage me to stay on it but see if a lower dose might be effective enough.

I will have to come to grips with this new reality. I just not sure what that means as of yet.

For me, it's a welcome change but I can understand why it would be alarming to you.

Kari,

Thanks for the inputs. Yes, it is alarming (and definitely unexpected). Whatever happens I need to be able to present as male (at least when I'm in public or any family is around).

It's interesting that you're seeing a similar result to losing weight. I had always thought that to really feminize one would have to lose all the weight first and then slowly put it back on. I have the feeling that if I were to put it back on now it would form in typically female places (my thighs, butt, and breasts) rather than in the male places.

Misty

Misty,

Everything that Clara, Sammie and Kari Leigh has said is in line with my own experience or rings true to me. I only wish though that I was as sensitive to Pm, and that my W/H ratio was as good - I probably need to lose another 2.5 inches to reach that.

It's interesting that you're seeing a similar result to losing weight. I had always thought that to really feminize one would have to lose all the weight first and then slowly put it back on. I have the feeling that if I were to put it back on now it would form in typically female places (my thighs, butt, and breasts) rather than in the male places.

Misty

Oh yeah! I do too. I have a feeling, as surprising as it is to see a glimmer of femininity lurking under the weight I lost, I'd be utterly shocked to see the results of putting it back on and seeing where it might end up. Thankfully, I'll be damned before I let that happen without a big fight. I feel soooo much better in so many ways with my current body.

there was a time when I thought I would have no choice but eventually transition regardless of the heavy cost (the GD was so great). The funny thing was that while I tried to combat the GD by increasing testosterone, the increased T actually accelerated the GD dramatically. I was relieved when the PM caused it to subside.

I have tried to stop or reduce the PM and find that the GD comes roaring back (which in turn causes me to resume the PM in search of feminization). I guess it's fair to say I am "addicted" to the PM at this point and stopping isn't an option.

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do at this point!

very similar to my situation misty, when I go off of PM the GD comes back in such a heavy manner someone may as well have dropped 10 tons of bricks on top of me.

also, it has oddly either gotten worse or I have lost the tolerance I had built up to it over the years, not sure which it is.

also, it has oddly either gotten worse or I have lost the tolerance I had built up to it over the years, not sure which it is.

Sometimes I get that feeling too (but it usually goes away). In my case I suspect that not every bottle of Ainterol PM is the same since they don't use a standardized extract.

At other times the "male" inside me starts to rebel and I think "what am I doing???" -- but those thoughts are extremely rare.

Misty