[EvaMarie]

Miss C I usually love the way you write and agree with you but on this I cannot....

I wont post sources but no way 50% regret SRS...

You make some good points though and the OP comes off to me as a bit immature and naive....

Sorry if that offends you Lexi but thats just the way I read it...

That is in no way a harsh dismissal of her condition though... While I think its probably easier than ever before to get the surgery I doubt many girls want it or ultimately end up doing it because its just a "Fantasy"...

I believe Ive read a few heart wrenching posts from Lexi on her life and I thought they described the TS condition quite well and I have no reason to think she's lying here... Really theres not much of a choice for those that go all the way... This isnt a "fantasy" its do or die.... I am aware that many dont make it and many live very tragic lives and die young by their own hand... But for those that must walk this road whats wrong with having a little hope and a goal in life to work towards???

While its true that all the surgery in the world will not make a bio male a woman it has been proven to greatly improve the lives of many who have no other way in life but to live the rest of it as a woman AND with a body thats as close to a womans as it can possibly be made... Im not saying its necessary to live a happy life with GD but I can certainly see the value in it... I dont however think its delusional to consider most TS to be women and to simply dismiss a post op TS as "a man with no twig and berries" is pretty ignorant I think...

I also am going to have to mostly disagree with you on the medical profession... I will say I used to think a lot like you until I actually found myself fully dressed as a woman in a docs office.... While I havent always agreed with them the docs Ive worked with definitely werent selling anything but what I felt was sincere genuine compassion and kindness and respect towards me...

While I have also always dismissed the value of therapy I am beginning to change my mind on that as well as things progress and surgery becomes something that doesnt seem so much just a "fantasy" as you put it... Someone besides just friends and family to talk to could give valuable input and insight they might miss... Selling "services" or not the surgeon will need a letter regardless....

None of this however answered the OP's question.... Pom gave the only useful input with the links provided....

If you want to know the truth and get good answers there are no better persons to ask and get advice from than those who have been there and done that....

[pom19]

I know some TGs are born in a wrong body. Since they are the true TGs, then nothing short of relieve for them to go thru SRS. Lynn Conway is a great example of that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Conway

[MissC]

As for the stuff about marketing...eh, I can see the point, but I think you're overstating it. The idea that you'll never be complete without GRS is definitely pushed within trans circles, but it's not like we're bombarded with neovagina ads. (Which would actually be kind of entertaining)

Perhaps slightly... but sometimes one must exaggerate a bit to make a point, no?

You hit the nail on the head: the idea is definitely pushed in trans circles. I see it as beyond that, actually. Consider my position. You're actually being reasonable here; other TS-folk scream bloody murder if I make the comparison. GRS is sacred dogma to many.

It's in this thread, matter of fact. The assertion that some people cannot live (and I mean in the physical sense, live) without GRS is not backed up by one shred of scientific evidence. Yet it's here. Insisting on the verity of scientifically unverifiable assertions is, by its very nature, religious dogma, or fundamentally equal to it at the least.

Also, you really do not seem to hate raining on anyone's parade, at any given opportunity MissC. That's actually kind of your thing!

It may seem that way, but no, I do not enjoy raining on parades. What I do enjoy is killing & grilling sacred cows, and shaming naked emperors. They are different things that sometimes look similar at first glance.

[SarahSchilling]

Perhaps slightly... but sometimes one must exaggerate a bit to make a point, no?

You hit the nail on the head: the idea is definitely pushed in trans circles. I see it as beyond that, actually. Consider my position. You're actually being reasonable here; other TS-folk scream bloody murder if I make the comparison. GRS is sacred dogma to many.

It's in this thread, matter of fact. The assertion that some people cannot live (and I mean in the physical sense, live) without GRS is not backed up by one shred of scientific evidence. Yet it's here. Insisting on the verity of scientifically unverifiable assertions is, by its very nature, religious dogma, or fundamentally equal to it at the least.



It may seem that way, but no, I do not enjoy raining on parades. What I do enjoy is killing & grilling sacred cows, and shaming naked emperors. They are different things that sometimes look similar at first glance.

LOL, well....TG folk can be a bit dramatic in general, can't we? I just take it as par for the course.

Fair enough on the killing sacred cows. As you know, I think your chosen method of execution sometimes leaves many averting their eyes, but I don't really fault the practice, only the method. Everyone has their own style though, I suppose.

I'm glad you're posting again, at any rate. This place has gotten a bit stale lately.

[EvaMarie]

Walk a few thousand miles In my shoes and get back to me Miss C...

Why do you doubt that many that get SRS cant live without it??? Have you ever tried living full time as a female??? Are you out with everyone that matters in your life??? Have you fully committed yourself to living the rest of your life as a female???

I will say that to truly live as a woman with a penis gets old really fast...

While I cant say its been long for me the alternative was a truly miserable existence where the only real question was do I keep killing myself slowly with the booze and depression or just get it over with easy and quick with my .45....

You seem to be under the impression that this is all really just a choice and a fantasy and your wrong...

[Missed Miss]

As for you not being able to get pregnant and having babies, that's not entirely true. There HAS been at least one successful uterus transplant from a woman to a m2f trans woman and she DID get pregnant AND have a baby and I'd have to guess (I didn't hear about this, but, I'd think you HAVE to have them, if you can get pregnant) that she also had periods!!
When my friend, Carla, finally got her SRS about 15 years ago, she invited me over to watch a movie about either The Monkees, or Sweetwater (the first band to play at Woodstock) (I saw both movies at her place, so I'm not sure which we saw that night) and, during a commercial, she asked if I'd "ever seen a designa vagina", I said I hadn't, so, she showed me hers and said, "Looks as good as any puss I've ever seen!". She DOES have to dilate, I have no idea if she gets aroused, gets wet or even cums, because she seems to want to be the oldest living virgin!! As far as I know, she has NEVER had sex with her new parts! That's one of the FIRST things I'D try!!!!
Anyway, good luck!! I hope you get everything you want from it! :-)

[MissC]

Heather, I'm not sure if you're response to MissC was serious or sarcastic. Hopefully, the latter, because I don't think that response was at all helpful.

Please "Clara-fy" something for me, because I don't want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying that straight talk is bad, and that we should just tell people what they want to hear, even if it's wrong? That's what it looks like to me, but I'd like to hear it from the proverbial horse's mouth.

I know you disagree with me, even though you have yet to make a logical case or coherent argument as to why, but who made you the arbiter of what is or is not helpful? It is not only possible, but statistically likely that someone, somewhere, at some time, will find my post helpful. It's the nature of things.

No way. A recently published paper by by Cecilia Dhejne, MD at Karolinska Institute in Stockholm shows that the regret rate for those having genital reconstruction surgery from 2001-2010 is only 0.3%.

This paper? http://www.researchgate.net/publication/...nd_Regrets

Its figure is 2.2% right there in the abstract, which is still laughably low, but nowhere near as preposterously inaccurate as your figure.

Perhaps this would be a good time to talk about the concept of research methodology? Since we are talking about emotions, there is no hard science involved here other than mathematics; specifically, statistics. Essentially, the only way to obtain this information is by what we call a "poll".

Polling is, as we all know, notoriously easy to manipulate based on the agenda or preconceived notions of the pollster. This is reflected by the phrasing of the questions.

For instance, let's say we are to take a poll about support for abortion. We can ask the question, "Do you support the killing of unborn children?" Or, we can ask, "Do you support a woman's right to make her own reproductive choices?" We will get different results even though we're talking about the same thing. Make sense so far?

What we don't know is what sort of questions were asked by Dr Dhejne. But based on what I was able to turn up with a few Google searches (yes, I do actually research and check your sources), I have more than a sneaking suspicion those were very soft questions designed to promote positive results -- results which appear so positive as to be fantastic.

What if we were to ask questions phrased to elicit a different response? I'll give a few examples, and let's posit that we're asking them of post-op MTFs, 10 years after SRS:

1) Looking back on 10 years, can you honestly say that you've never had one moment of regret? (This would, of course, put the regret rate at 100%, so a scientist would not consider this question useful. Just making a point here.)

2) If we could wave a magic wand and take you back 15 years, and make you happily cis male, would you? (This would sure as heck be more than 2.2%.)

3) Has it been everything you hoped for?

Also, we should consider how the nature of humans often prevents us from being honest with ourselves and each other when it comes to mistakes we've made. It is not easy to acknowledge one's errors, and the bigger the error, the harder to gulp out the words of admission, "I guess I fucked up." SRS, if it's a mistake, is one great big giant huge fucking mistake, no? I mean, dayum!

I highlight this paragraph from the referenced source:

[...]as well as lowered overall functional impairment in trans individuals just 12 months after initiating hormone therapy. A study released in late 2013 showed that individuals on hormone therapy have both lower-levels of self-reported stress and lower blood cortisol levels (a key physiological marker of stress).

That's actually a no-brainer. But not in the way you might think.

Nearly every form of medical intervention, including placebo-controlled groups in double-blind studies, all the way down the ladder through acupuncture, to therapies considered "quackery" like copper bracelets and homeopathy, have PROVEN to reduce stress (and cortisol) in patients. So do meditation, prayer, exercise, playing fetch with a dog, and smoking pot.

Stress is a combination of physical and mental factors, but the best control for it remains mental. Anything you do that relieves stress is a cure for stress, no matter how ridiculous it may sound to others, and regardless of its efficacy or lack thereof for any other human being whatsoever. For some folks of a certain... bent... wanking to Mexican midget donkey porn lowers cortisol, but that by no means recommends that particular treatment for the general population!

In other words, the fact that the stress levels of transexuals go down with HRT is no indication whatsoever that it's the only way to reduce stress, or that such treatment is indicated for that problem. Placebo would give about the same results (we see this from other studies, such as the one for Prozac that found placebo to reduce depression better than Prozac), as would, I suspect, a recommendation that the sufferer take up Tai Chi, bowling, crochet, or whitewater kayaking. Basically, the cure for stress is "something" -- in the most general sense.

[i]"According to the National Transgender Discrimination Survey, 78% of trans students had experienced harassment at school, 90% of trans people have experienced harassment in the workplace, 26% had a lost a job due to being trans (which, in-turn, leads to a 4-fold increase in risk of homelessness), 19% had experienced housing discrimination, 19% had been refused health-care, 22% had been harassed by law enforcement.

This so much reminds me of the words of Benjamin Disraeli: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Or Homer Simpson: "Ah, you can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that."

Let's illustrate why these are meaningless statistics, shall we?

First, we have to define some of the terms, like "harassment". What does that mean, exactly? There is a legal definition, which I learned as a member of a jury in a harassment case, but I doubt we're talking about the crime of harassment or there would be hard numbers from the Department of Justice. So it must mean something else -- but what? Did someone make a snide remark?

Lost a job "due to being trans?" Was there a category in this survey for "lost a job due to sucking at it?" How would we know? I've been fired from jobs before, and I can admit it was my own fault -- mostly! -- but certainly not for my gender status. (One thing I do know for certain: if you are super good at your job, and no one else can do it, you will not be fired for anything shy of burning your building down.)

What precisely is their definition of housing discrimination? And how could you prove that it's all due to trans-ness? Aren't some trans girls black? Could it be racial? I have read complaints about this from people who can't prove income, have a dozen cats, have a drug habit... but whine whine, it's discrimination man! (I've worked in property management; I know of what I speak.)

22% harassed by law enforcement? I do believe that number is actually higher in the rest of the population!

For the second part of this examination, let's replace some of your labels, just for giggles:

78% of Down's Syndrome kids harassed at school.
90% of human beings have been somehow harassed in the workplace.
26% of people lost a job due to failing a drug test.
19% of pit bull owners have faced housing discrimination.
22% of black teenagers have been harassed by law enforcement.

Is this changing your picture yet? The numbers may be true, but their meaning is entirely subjective, isn't it? Is this a sound basis for making policy? Is it even a sound basis for making life-altering personal choices?

Anyway, to bring it back on point... if you Google the phrase "transsexual surgery regret" you'll get nearly a half million results. I'm no professional statistician, but I'm reasonably certain that paints a picture a bit less rosy than you'd hope.

[MissC]

LOL, well....TG folk can be a bit dramatic in general, can't we?

I hereby nominate this for Understatement of the Day!

Maybe that's why so many end up in theater, drag, music, etc. Hm.

This place has gotten a bit stale lately.

That's what happens when groupthink reaches critical mass. A majority opinion develops, grows, and pretty soon, shouts down all minority voices. Then it becomes a self-congratulatory mutual mental masturbation society (aka "Circle Jerk"), and staleness ensues. Then, the minority start their own forum where they can one day be the majority and become what they once hated, enjoying the pleasure of the power of numbers.

Incidentally, this is why democracy is the worst possible form of government.

[MissC]

Walk a few thousand miles In my shoes and get back to me Miss C...

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, sweetie. Read on.

Why do you doubt that many that get SRS cant live without it???

The short answer -- I read. But let's come back to that one later.

Have you ever tried living full time as a female???

I don't try; I actually do, though it's a bit more complicated in my case. I can pass, sometimes, from a sufficient distance. My driver license picture looks female but it says "M". I dress and appear female, but the core difference is that I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm a bio-girl. There's no help for my baritone either. Androgyne would be the word.

I have not been able to do the "guy, shirtless" thing since puberty, when my boobs grew in. I'm not a regular dude with a lingerie fetish, ya know.

It suits me, however, as a two-spirit. I get sir, ma'am, and/or confusion depending on the day. I don't suppose a lot of people could live the way I do, existing outside the gender binary. In short, yes, I am "full time".

Are you out with everyone that matters in your life???

Yep. I am so far out of the closet I couldn't find my way back with GPS.

Have you fully committed yourself to living the rest of your life as a female???

I don't need to. There's no law that says I have to have my penis removed in order to dress like a girl. There's no law that says I have to take hormones or have my name changed. I can wear dresses and makeup every day for the rest of my life without anyone's permission, without surgery, and without changing my name or official sex.

That's because I reject the notion that gender and sex are purely binary. Seeing things from that perspective, your position looks a bit... antiquated.

Besides all that, I don't believe for a second that I could or would be female! Which is my point to all this!

I will say that to truly live as a woman with a penis gets old really fast...

It doesn't bother me a bit. I don't have to "pass" naked. I wear clothing when I'm outside of my house, so no one in public knows what's up my skirt. Sit down to pee in the ladies' loo, and you'll be fine.

Although I have to say, when it comes to naked fun and games... being a "shemale" is pretty darn awesome! I admit to some occasional uterus envy, but plenty of my girlfriends have occasional penis envy... it all balances out. I know myself well enough to know that even if I did want it gone, I'd want it back at some point....

While I cant say its been long for me the alternative was a truly miserable existence where the only real question was do I keep killing myself slowly with the booze and depression or just get it over with easy and quick with my .45....

I spent most of my 20s and part of my 30s trying to kill my liver, trying to drink away my pain, solitude, not fitting in, shame, guilt, anger, you name it. You ain't special.

There are many ways to quit drinking and kick depression -- most of which, I'm told, are more effective, cheaper, and less traumatic than having your penis removed.

I did it. I quit tobacco too. Two things happened to cause this: I got tired of hangovers, and I got tired of hating myself for being different. That's what it was, deep down inside. I didn't like me. You'll hear that from everyone who's kicked a depression and booze habit, not just trans people.

You seem to be under the impression that this is all really just a choice and a fantasy and your wrong...

I had the fantasy... and I made a choice. That's my impression, because it's my reality. I know I'm not the only one of my kind, so my impression is, at the very least, truth for a minority. So how can I be wrong?

Which brings us back to...

Why do you doubt that many that get SRS cant live without it???

I suppose if one had penile cancer, and had to have it removed pronto or it would metastasize and kill the man...

Thing is, people are resilient. They find ways. I'm sure a lot of fine young men think they couldn't live without legs, but as so many of those young men coming back from war zones without them find, they can adapt. Not pleasantly, but they adapt.

Some do commit suicide, we know, but that remains the individual's choice. It's not set in stone. We can't give those boys their legs back.

Bottom line: you haven't pulled the trigger. And if you can't get SRS, you still won't pull the trigger. You will live without it because your will to live is stronger than your desire to change.

But you will not die -- naturally -- of having male genitalia. Nor will anyone else. Nor will that fact shock the general public.

[MissC]

[...]because she seems to want to be the oldest living virgin!! As far as I know, she has NEVER had sex with her new parts! That's one of the FIRST things I'D try!!!!

One would think, right?

It's the elephant in the room that few are willing to discuss, but let's face facts -- unless you are completely asexual, have no drive, have never had sex in your life and don't plan to -- it's a factor.

The strangest scenario, to me, is the "straight man" planning to be a "straight woman" after SRS. That basically never happens. This is why you hear of so many "lesbian" couples of post-ops. But most end up asexual even if they weren't before.

The post-op who settles down in a relationship with a man, guaranteed, was attracted to and slept with men long before the operation. Men are clever creatures; we figured out how to have sexy good times without a nearby vagina at least several millenia ago. Hell, monkeys can have gay sex, so it probably wasn't rocket science to Cro-Magnon man. Bottom line here: if you're not attracted to men before SRS, you probably won't be after; if you are, then you're not letting lack of a vagina hold you back.

If you're bisexual, you already know you can go both ways with the equipment you've got. SRS can't improve on that. This is probably why I've never met a bisexual transsexual.

A sex change is one hell of an excuse to get a divorce if you no longer like your wife... and I can't imagine for the life of me why you'd throw away one you actually like... for a fantasy.

Because that's what happens. Hate on me all you like, but statistically, that describes at least some members of this forum, whether you know it yet or not, and all your vociferous protests to the contrary.