[tanysquirrel]

An interesting phenomenon is that free zinc ions enhance prostate cancer growth, while zinc citrate has the opposite effect. This is especially applicable to those with low testosterone, because testosterone reduces cancer aggressiveness and metastasis. You have to get T below ~230 ng/dl to start getting a reduction of cancer growth rate to offset the increased aggressiveness/metastasis, because the growth rate effect of T saturates at low levels.

Take Reishi this is good against cancer

i swear by the caps of the reishi mushroom, i believe it has made a profound difference in anti-androgen production/nbe experience

[Candace]

Reishi also extends lifespan, at least in mice. They got the best results with 175 mg Reishi/kg bodyweight. To get the human equivalent dose you have to divide that by 12.3 (Mice are small so they need a faster metabolism to maintain body temperature.), so a 70 kg human would need about a gram of ReishiMax. That contains 132 mg polysaccharides, 59 mg tripterpenes, and 150 mg cracked spores. Swanson's "Super Potent" Reishi has 120 mg polysaccharides, 80 mg triterpenes, and 200 mg cracked spores, which I figure is close enough. (Swanson also has a less sophisticated extract which I bought once by accident.)

[Lotus]

Its been stated here before that the Androgen to Estrogen pathway is easier than the Testosterone to Estrogen pathway, and once again aromatase continues to demonstrate the factual evidence.

[Lotus]

A couple of French researchers recently reported this:

Testosterone is reduced by the enzyme 5-a-reductase to DHT which is then thought to be the real culprit. The argument between the use of Saw Palmetto, Pygeum and Pumpkin seeds vs Proscar are both directed at blocking this enzyme. Strangely, DHT is most important for sexual vigor, so blocking this step may have some unintended consequences!

On the other hand, Testosterone is also converted into estradiol by aromatase (producing the aromatic ring). This occurs increasingly with age in the liver but most importantly ... in the fat stores.
Now you see the connection. As we age, and frequently gain increasing fat stores, we are feeding the aromatase connection, increasing our estradiol levels and if this theory holds, increasing the promotion of prostate disease.

Also that rising estrogen levels are more likely to be the initiator of the process and that testosterone and DHT may then be a secondary player (promoter). In fact, phytotherapy (large doses of phytoestrogens - soy) is commonly used in European medical practices to treat BPH.

Another example of the androgen/estrogen pathway:



http://www.antiaging.com/andropause/andropause2.html


Thanks Larana, Janet, Candace (Hi, and a belated welcome), TMS aka Tanya Marie Squirrel (which btw TMS you make laugh) for all your comments.

[Candace]

That's a nice diagram, thanks for posting it. I think there should also be a direct route from DHEA to estriol. I think some bodybuilder was taking a gram of it and then complaining about it aromatizing on him. This diagram looks plausible but I can't vouch for it.
   

[Lotus]

That's a nice diagram, thanks for posting it. I think there should also be a direct route from DHEA to estriol. I think some bodybuilder was taking a gram of it and then complaining about it aromatizing on him. This diagram looks plausible but I can't vouch for it.

Candace,

Lol, he probably should've taken Armidex than. I like that diagram, thanks for sharing too. The biggest problem still is DHT, once testosterone is converted by 5-alpha-reductase to dihydrotestosterone, an even more potent agonist for androgen receptor activation. So it seems DHT would/will negate any positive gains by Estrogen, here's what I mean: the info is from Wikipedia. (137 references on the topic of androgen receptors).

The primary mechanism of action for androgen receptors is direct regulation of gene transcription. The binding of an androgen to the androgen receptor results in a conformational change in the receptor that, in turn, causes dissociation of heat shock proteins, transport from the cytosol into the cell nucleus, and dimerization.

The androgen receptor dimer binds to a specific sequence of DNA known as a hormone response element. Androgen receptors interact with other proteins in the nucleus, resulting in up- or down-regulation of specific gene transcription.

Up-regulation or activation of transcription results in increased synthesis of messenger RNA, which, in turn, is translated by ribosomes to produce specific proteins. One of the known target genes of androgen receptor activation is the insulin-like growth factor I receptor (IGF-1R).

Thus, changes in levels of specific proteins in cells is one way that androgen receptors control cell behavior. One thing that gets overlooked is edema due to simulation of Aldosterone receptors as it's pointed out.


The conclusion is that once DHT binds to androgen receptors (which btw DHT has two to three times greater androgen receptor affinity than testosterone) it can't be converted back to estrogen. When this happens boob growth is essentially inhibited.

Thanks again Candace for the post.

[Candace]

Thus, changes in levels of specific proteins in cells is one way that androgen receptors control cell behavior. One thing that gets overlooked is edema due to simulation of Aldosterone receptors as it's pointed out.

Could you elaborate on the effect androgens have on aldosterone? My understanding is that testosterone and dopamine lower aldosterone (and thus reduce edema) while estrogen, prolactin, and anxiety increase it. Progesterone also increases it but blocks its receptors.

[Lotus]

Thus, changes in levels of specific proteins in cells is one way that androgen receptors control cell behavior. One thing that gets overlooked is edema due to simulation of Aldosterone receptors as it's pointed out.

Could you elaborate on the effect androgens have on aldosterone? My understanding is that testosterone and dopamine lower aldosterone (and thus reduce edema) while estrogen, prolactin, and anxiety increase it. Progesterone also increases it but blocks its receptors.

Candace,

In answer to your question and per your link from: http://drtedwilliams.net/kb/index.php?pa...stosterone

I think it can be explained that the good doctor (Dr. Ted Williams) meant edema was a side effect from stimulation of aldosterone receptors alone. From the diagram it lists these as side effects of testosterone:

Side effects of testosterone

Virilization
Feminization due to aromatase conversion to Estrogen
Edema due to simulation of Aldosterone receptors is under diagnosed
Jaundice, Hepatic carcinoma

My comment about edema was meant towards that it Edema (and one of the possible symptoms of edema, was due to the simulation of aldosterone receptors) is under-diagnosed. I could be wrong about this but perhaps he was referring to adenoma, (referenced below). Why he listed a side effect of edema from T is only a question he can answer, but what do know compared to him?.

He's the creator of the Pharmacy Wiki
A Professional Software Developer for 10 years
Portland State University BS General Science 2005
OSU College of Pharmacy Graduate 2009
Syracuse VAMC PGY1 General Practice Residency 2009-2010
VISN 21 PBM Academic Educator 2010
.
I'm not seeing a direct link on androgens though, maybe and I repeat maybe it's the precursor hormone progesterone, and even that's stretching a very very thin line. But who knows, it could also stem from testosterone therapy or even a spike in DHT from MPB.


Aldosterone Receptor Antagonists (diagram)
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/121/...nsion.html

A testosterone-producing adrenal cortical adenoma in an elderly woman.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1270580

Testosterone secreting adrenal cortical adenomas
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...928190028X

_________________________________________


Here is a study that linked DHT to stimulated aldosterone secretion.

Supraphysiological concentrations of DHT stimulated aldosterone secretion by human adrenal cells by the calmodulin/CaMK and protein kinase C intracellular signaling pathways but independently of the classical androgen receptor. Supraphysiological doses of androgen may promote cardiovascular diseases via stimulation of aldosterone secretion.

Dihydrotestosterone Stimulates Aldosterone Secretion by H295R Human Adrenocortical Cells
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2681414/

____________________________________________

And here's a study on Dopamine/aldosterone

Aldosterone suppression with dopamine infusion in low-renin hypertension.

From this study it was determined basal and adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH)-stimulated plasma aldosterone (PA), cortisol, renin activity, and potassium concentrations before and during dopamine receptor stimulation with dopamine infusion and bromocriptine administration and dopamine receptor blockade with metoclopramide. Two groups tested differ from normal-renin hypertensives, who have no PA suppression with dopamine infusion.

Aldosterone suppression with dopamine infusion in low-renin hypertension.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129240/

Other thoughts-

On the the hand hypothyroid muscles typically retain excess water, and fatigue easily, taking up more water than normal during exertion. Aldosterone also helps drive-up your blood pressure. High aldosterone levels can indicate too much of the hormone being released leading to high Blood pressure, or the possibility of diabetes, Conns and Addison's are also of concern. We can also open up a "no.10 can" on primary and secondary aldosteronism alone (not from me though, lol).

[Candace]

Candace,

In answer to your question and per your link from: http://drtedwilliams.net/kb/index.php?pa...stosterone

I think it can be explained that the good doctor (Dr. Ted Williams) meant edema was a side effect from stimulation of aldosterone receptors alone. From the diagram it lists these as side effects of testosterone:

Side effects of testosterone

Virilization
Feminization due to aromatase conversion to Estrogen
Edema due to simulation of Aldosterone receptors is under diagnosed
Jaundice, Hepatic carcinoma

My comment about edema was meant towards that it Edema (and one of the possible symptoms of edema, was due to the simulation of aldosterone receptors) is under-diagnosed. I could be wrong about this but perhaps he was referring to adenoma, (referenced below). Why he listed a side effect of edema from T is only a question he can answer, but what do know compared to him?.

OK, that makes a lot more sense now that I know you were quoting someone talking about androgens and not just the androgen receptor. Since he listed feminization as a testosterone side effect, I think we can assume that the edema side effect is also from aromatizated testosterone.

Good find on the alternative pathway for DHT to cause edema at 300+ nM. That's 8700 ng/dl! I had no idea steroid abusers could drive it that high.

[Larana]

Lotus. What is the strongest DHT blocker?Why does it needs Cink,Pumkin seed capsules?