[Candace]

What's irritating is that fact you want someone else to be your search engine, I never said Isabelle, abi, tibetan, had anecdotal evidence. What I said was they did PURE research, but to prove a point I found these statements about Reishi in a basic search using the BN search option.

In science the onus of proof is on the maker of the claim. You're making the claim that Reishi is undoubtedly an effective 5-AR inhibitor in humans, yet have provided no human data or human anecdotes, and in the face of disturbingly short half-life data in rats.

Your latest anecdotes are just silly. Your Tibetan quote is the one I found earlier, and it involved taking Reishi with a stack of anti-androgens including pygeum so we have no evidence that the Reishi did anything. Your Abi quote just states that she wished she'd had it when she needed a 5-AR blocker. She never even took it! It makes you look foolish when you post things that don't help your case.

If you want to claim that Reishi is a good human 5-AR inhibitor, you need to provide a good anecdote in which someone used it to treat DHT symptoms. Otherwise, you're in the realm of faith and not science.

That says green tea inhibits 5-AR. There's nothing in the paper about peony inhibiting 5-AR.

Come on, you can find it, the info is out there.......

I doubt it. You would have shared it if it existed. White peony inhibiting 5-AR appears to be a myth resulting from people misunderstanding the abstract of the paper you cited.

Of course I have it, no myth here, the misunderstanding is entirely yours!!, or do I need to explain this part to you.

Main content: Paeoniflorin,C23H28O10 (3.3%~9.4); paeonol,C9H10O3 (0.0283%); benzoylpaeoniflorin, C30H32O12 (0.04%).

Other Consituents:albiforin (0.06%~0.07%); culapedungin; gallotannin; oxypaeoniflorin; paeoni-florigenone (0.04%); oxgpaeonigflorin (0.12%~0.21%); gallotcnnin; benzoic acid (1.07%);beta-sitosterol; gallic acid;ether gallic acid; D-catechin; palbinone;beta-pailactone; galloylpaeoniflorin; daucosterol; etc.
Up.

Phytochemicals of White Poeny Root:

Paeoniflorin; Albiflorin; Oxypaeoniflorin; Paeonin; Benzoylpaeoniflorin; Hydroxypaeoniflorin; Galloylpaeoniflorin; Lactoflorin; Paeonilactone A, B, C; beta-sitosterol; Daucosterol; Z-1s, 5R-beta-pinen-10-yl-beta-vicianoside; 1, 2, 3, 6-tetra-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose; 1, 2, 3, 4, 6-penta-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose; Catechin; Benzoic acid; Paeonol.

Which specific chemicals are you referring to? And for each of them, how much is in peony extract, what is the dose-response relationship for blood levels, what is the IC50 for 5-AR, and what is the half-life in the body? Using that information, enlighten us as to what dose would be required to be useful in lowering DHT. If you can't do this, please retract your claim that peony extract is a practical 5-AR inhibitor. We shouldn't have to take your word for it.

[BestBreasts]

kinda going to change the subject here... sorry

about Saw Palmetto....
I understand it's a DHT inhibitor.
how do you know if its working???

when u wax/shave your legs/arms/vagina/underarms, your hair grows slower?? or does your facial hair start to fall off??
i want to wax my sideburns, and I thread my chin/mustache
...so will this facial hair's growth slow down if the SP is working????

is there anything I should be taking with SP?

thanks so much for the advice Lotus.
& sorry again for changing the subject

xoxoxox hope to hear from someone soon !!! =]]

[Lotus]

is there anything I should be taking with SP?

thanks so much for the advice Lotus.
& sorry again for changing the subject

xoxoxox hope to hear from someone soon !!! =]]

45, I wouldn't let troll behavior prevent you or anyone else from asking questions, it's being addressed.

-------------------------------------------

A number of factors actually, first being the amount you take. With that in mind YMWV as they say, meaning your metabolism. Short of a silva test, you can keep track of when you wax/shave and you'll have a better idea if it's working. I don't think an increase in SP or adding more DHT inhibitor supplements is necessary, perhaps quality over quantity can be an issue, I'd watch the foods you eat.

This is a helpful article:

Can Foods and Vitamins Stop DHT?
http://www.livestrong.com/article/302048...-stop-dht/


Also this one:

Phytosterols may inhibit the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, and block the production of DHT. You can obtain phytosterols through food sources, including wheat germ, sesame oil, corn oil, canola oil, peanuts, almonds, macadamia nuts, brussels sprouts, olive oil and rye bread.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/ph...index.html


There's a popular myth that shaving causes hair to grow back coarser," says dermatologist David Pariser, MD. "But that's not true. An unshaved hair has a tip that is tapered and soft. When you shave it, you shave off the soft tip, so it feels coarser."
--------------------------------------------
(Waxing)

Despite the initial ouch-factor, waxing is a quick way to remove facial hair, and you won't see regrowth for a few weeks. Apply the wax in the direction of hair growth and pull off the wax strip in the opposite direction as you hold the skin taut. Otherwise, you may not remove all the hair at once, and you could be left with inflammation. Try Clean+Easy Tea Tree Roll-On Wax, Veet Ready-to-Use Wax Strips for Face or Nair Face Wax Strips.

Possible side effects of waxing can be redness, bumps, and also an infection around the hair follicles. The more often you wax, the less likely you are to have an infection. Typically 3-6 weeks for results.

Tips: Hair has to be at least 1/4 inch long for the wax to grab it. So let your hair grow for a few weeks before waxing.
_______________________________

(Laser/Pulsed Light)

Destroys the roots with strong beams of light. ("Laser hair removal really is the most effective way to have long-term hair reduction," says dermatologist Cameron Rokhsar, MD. "It's as permanent as it gets.")

Best for: Laser and IPL (intense pulsed light) works anywhere on the body. It's best for women with dark hair and light skin. It won't work on white hair and doesn't work well on blond hair either.

How long it lasts: It may take between 6-12 treatments to see results. You may need to go back every 6-12 months for a touchup.

Possible side effects: Swelling or redness.

Because there's also a chance of burning and scarring, it's best to have laser treatments where there's a doctor on staff, Pariser says.

-----------------------------------

Cream depilatories work by breaking down the sulfur bond in the hair and dissolving it at the skin's surface, unlike wax, which pulls out hair at the roots. The benefits are that it doesn't hurt and the ingredients also work to exfoliate dead skin cells; the downside is that the hair grows back quickly. Dot the cream on your upper lip, in between your brows or on your chin and leave it on from three to 15 minutes. Rinse with warm water. Try Sally Hansen Pure Scent-sation Hair Remover for Face, Sally Hansen Insta-Smooth Pods or Nair Precision Face & Upper Lip Kit.


http://www.livestrong.com/article/159315...-products/

[Lotus]

It makes you look foolish when you post things that don't help your case.

Foolish is the one who can't do (or find) his own research, foolish is also believing you had something of value to offer other than nonsense.

We shouldn't have to take your word for it.

Never said anybody had too, ask the 88 men in this study below, or the actual "humans" at breast nexus who take it.

I can't find any human data,

There's so much more if you actually looked, (disappointing).


Randomized clinical trial of an ethanol extract of Ganoderma lucidum in men with lower urinary tract symptoms
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18097505

Abstract
To evaluate the safety and efficacy of an extract of Ganoderma lucidum that shows the strongest 5alpha-reductase inhibitory activity among the extracts of 19 edible and medicinal mushrooms by a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized and dose-ranging study in men with lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS).
METHODS:
In this trial, we randomly assigned 88 men over the age of 49 years who had slight-to-moderate LUTS to 12 weeks of treatment with G. lucidum extract (6 mg once a day) or placebo. The primary outcome measures were changes in the International Prostate Symptom Score (IPSS) and variables of uroflowmetry. Secondary outcome measures included changes in prostate size, residual urinary volume after voiding, laboratory values and the reported adverse effects.
RESULTS:
G. lucidum was effective and significantly superior to placebo for improving total IPSS with 2.1 points decreasing at the end of treatment (mean difference, -1.18 points; 95% confidence interval, -1.74 to -0.62; P < 0.0001). No changes were observed with respect to quality of life scores, peak urinary flow, mean urinary flow, residual urine, prostate volume, serum prostate-specific antigen or testosterone levels. Overall treatment was well tolerated with no severe adverse effects.
CONCLUSION:
The extract of G. lucidum was well tolerated and improved IPSS scores. These results encouraged a further, large-scale evaluation of phytotherapy for a long duration using the extract of G. lucidum on men with LUTS.


here's what you posted on Reishi,

I found the full text of the reishi 5-AR inhibition paper. The doses they used in rats were either 0.3% of diet as unextracted mushrooms or 1.5 mg/kg of the extract.

1.5 mg/kg divide by 6.2 going from rats to humans times 70 kg human = 17 mg extract. A gram of Swanson's best extract has 80 mg of triterpenes (which do the 5-AR inhibition), so it should work.

For unextracted mushrooms, 0.3% of diet = 3000 mg/kg diet. A rat eats 5 g diet per 100 g body which makes it 150 mg/kg. Divide by 6.2 times 70 kg human = 1.7 grams mushrooms.

I thouhght the reishi is a testosteron blocker,not only DHT,isn't?

Correct. It hits both 5-AR and the androgen receptor.

Reishi also extends lifespan, at least in mice. They got the best results with 175 mg Reishi/kg bodyweight. To get the human equivalent dose you have to divide that by 12.3 (Mice are small so they need a faster metabolism to maintain body temperature.), so a 70 kg human would need about a gram of ReishiMax. That contains 132 mg polysaccharides, 59 mg tripterpenes, and 150 mg cracked spores. Swanson's "Super Potent" Reishi has 120 mg polysaccharides, 80 mg triterpenes, and 200 mg cracked spores, which I figure is close enough. (Swanson also has a less sophisticated extract which I bought once by accident.)

Reishi is probably a better bet than SP for DHT lowering. It has no undesirable side effects and increases lifespan in mice. There are several Reishi posts in this thread from #280 to #294.

SP has a reputation for weight gain in the thighs and cellulite. That thread also mentions that fenugreek goes well with PM.

Here's a chart depicting Abi's day-by-day cycling of PM, FG, estradiol, and progesterone cream. Her obsessiveness has made her one of my heroes.

Thanks Candace that's good to know that not all of the Reishi products are not the same. I've looked around and noticed that the prices for Reishi vary greatly and wondered why that is. I assume its the difference in the potency and effectiveness.

Still its hard to explain why Natures Way sells for 6.89 for 100 capsules while Life Extension is 22.50 for 60 capsules.

Nature's Way contains only 188 mg of extract per capsule and there's no triterpene guarantee, while LEF guarantees triterpenes and has 490 mg of extract. Usually Nature's Way is a classy company so I was surprised to see them cheating on this one.

It can take 3 months to see an effect.

I'd choose Reishi to replace SP as the 5-AR inhibitor, since Reishi doesn't mess with female hormones and has the nice side effects of immune enhancement and lifespan extension.

An oil rich in GLA like borage or evening primrose will elevate PGE1 which increases aromatase. White peony is another method. I find it darkly hilarious that LEF sells it as an immune booster and is apparently oblivious to its hormonal effects.

Aromatase only works on testosterone, so you'll need a 5-AR inhibitor like reishi, pygeum, pumpkin seed oil, or saw palmetto to prevent DHT production. I'm less certain about reishi after having looked for pharmacokinetic data. I can't find any human data, and rats metabolize at least one of the reishi triterpenes rapidly so it has a half-life of a few hours. That's OK for rats because they nibble on their food all day, but could be problematic for humans taking it only once or twice a day. (The immune boost doesn't need reishi to be constantly in your system, but 5-AR should be continuously blocked.)

The other 5-AR inhibitors I listed have beta-sitosterol which has a nice half-life measured in days.

MSM is a straightforward molecule so any good brand would work. I've used Now and Doctor's Best.

I am irritated by the wild goose chase you sent me on. XXD, Isabelle, and Abi Drew never mentioned taking Reishi in those threads. Tibetan Princess only mentioned it on page 1 of 66, didn't mention any effects, and was also taking pygeum so it would be impossible to isolate any Reishi effects on DHT.

Duh!, tibetan stated she took Reishi, and offered an anecdotal in there too, both of which you missed and why I listed again.

Reishi is a natural anti androgen plus it fights viruses, bacteria and funguses. I take for my auto immune disease as well.

Your latest anecdotes are just silly. Your Tibetan quote is the one I found earlier, and it involved taking Reishi with a stack of anti-androgens including pygeum so we have no evidence that the Reishi did anything. Your Abi quote just states that she wished she'd had it when she needed a 5-AR blocker. She never even took it! It makes you look foolish when you post things that don't help your case.

What part of this don't you get!, (it's highlighted, you obviously overlooked it).

That says green tea inhibits 5-AR. There's nothing in the paper about peony inhibiting 5-AR.

Come on, you can find it, the info is out there.......

I doubt it. You would have shared it if it existed. White peony inhibiting 5-AR appears to be a myth resulting from people misunderstanding the abstract of the paper you cited.

Which specific chemicals are you referring to? And for each of them, how much is in peony extract, what is the dose-response relationship for blood levels, what is the IC50 for 5-AR, and what is the half-life in the body? Using that information, enlighten us as to what dose would be required to be useful in lowering DHT. If you can't do this, please retract your claim that peony extract is a practical 5-AR inhibitor. We shouldn't have to take your word for it.

The answers have been given to you again, if you can quote IC50 values then you can certainly figure out the chemical constituents for 5 ar. On top of the you want me to tell you the IC50 of 5 alpha reductase?, hilarious!.

Which specific chemicals are you referring to? 

Of course I have it, no myth here, the misunderstanding is entirely yours!!, or do I need to explain this part to you.

Which specific chemicals are you referring to? 

Still can't figure it out?, ok, how about finding at least (3) 5 ar's on there?.

Main content: Paeoniflorin,C23H28O10 (3.3%~9.4); paeonol,C9H10O3 (0.0283%); benzoylpaeoniflorin, C30H32O12 (0.04%).

Other Consituents:albiforin (0.06%~0.07%); culapedungin; gallotannin; oxypaeoniflorin; paeoni-florigenone (0.04%); oxgpaeonigflorin (0.12%~0.21%); gallotcnnin; benzoic acid (1.07%);beta-sitosterol; gallic acid;ether gallic acid; D-catechin; palbinone;beta-pailactone; galloylpaeoniflorin; daucosterol; etc.
Up.

Phytochemicals of White Poeny Root:

Paeoniflorin; Albiflorin; Oxypaeoniflorin; Paeonin; Benzoylpaeoniflorin; Hydroxypaeoniflorin; Galloylpaeoniflorin; Lactoflorin; Paeonilactone A, B, C; beta-sitosterol; Daucosterol; Z-1s, 5R-beta-pinen-10-yl-beta-vicianoside; 1, 2, 3, 6-tetra-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose; 1, 2, 3, 4, 6-penta-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose; Catechin; Benzoic acid; Paeonol.
[/quote]

Aromatase only works on testosterone

Incorrect, DHT is converted by aromatase to estrogen.

Aromatase also converts androstenedione (a sex hormone precursor) to the female hormone estrone, another estrogen, although weaker than estradiol.
If you increase the activity of aromatase, you can increase levels of female sex hormones (estradiol, estrone).

Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, gonadotropins, and alcohol. Aromatase activity is decreased by prolactin, anti-Müllerian hormone and the common herbicide glyphosate. Aromatase activity appears to be enhanced in certain estrogen-dependent local tissue next to breast tissue, endometrial cancer, endometriosis, and uterine fibroids.

Don't confuse the enzyme 5 alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT).

[Candace]

Thanks for digging up that paper. It confirms my fears: Reishi did nothing for "quality of life scores, peak urinary flow, mean urinary flow, residual urine, prostate volume, serum prostate-specific antigen or testosterone levels." Beta sitosterol, on the other hand, decreases IPSS (7.4 points vs Reishi's 2.1 points), increases peak urinary flow, and decreases residual urine. Thus, Reishi cannot be placed in the top tier of 5-AR inhibitors. It's definitely worth taking for the immune and lifespan effects, but to lower DHT one would be well-advised to take something else with it.

Which specific chemicals are you referring to? And for each of them, how much is in peony extract, what is the dose-response relationship for blood levels, what is the IC50 for 5-AR, and what is the half-life in the body? Using that information, enlighten us as to what dose would be required to be useful in lowering DHT. If you can't do this, please retract your claim that peony extract is a practical 5-AR inhibitor. We shouldn't have to take your word for it.

The answers have been given to you again, if you can quote IC50 values then you can certainly figure out the chemical constituents for 5 ar. On top of the you want me to tell you the IC50 of 5 alpha reductase?, hilarious!.

You have not provided a legitimate answer, you're just blowing smoke in a desperate attempt to avoid having to admit that you were wrong about something. The major components of peony do not inhibit 5-AR. (By the way, the term is "antagonists" or "inhibitors", not "chemical constituents".) Beta sitosterol does inhibit 5-AR, but the content in peony is too low for your reference to specify it, so the effective peony dose would be impractical, and perhaps dangerous if it caused an overdose of the major components.

I did not ask for the IC50 of 5-alpha reductase, I asked for "And for each of them ... what is the IC50 for 5-AR?" This gives us an idea of what blood level of the active ingredient we would need to achieve. Dose-response data tells us how much of the chemical we'd have to take to reach that blood level. And the concentration of the inhibitor in peony extract would tell us how much extract we'd have to take. Without doing that calculation, you cannot claim that peony is a practical 5-AR inhibitor.

Aromatase only works on testosterone

Incorrect, DHT is converted by aromatase to estrogen.

Whaaaaat? This chart and this paper say otherwise. You also used to believe that DHT could not be aromatized. What changed your mind?

[Lotus]

Herbs and other inhibitors

Many plants, as well as their associated phytochemical constituents, have inhibitory effects on 5α-reductase.[34] In addition, many of these compounds are also phytoestrogens.[35]

(By the way, the term is "antagonists" or "inhibitors", not "chemical constituents".)

constituent
a part of the whole; component.

(an essential part : component, element)


5-alpha-reductase inhibitor's
5α-reductase inhibitors (5-ARIs) are a class of drugs with antiandrogen effects, used primarily in the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) and androgenic alopecia.

These agents inhibit the enzyme 5α-reductase, which is involved in the metabolic transformations of a variety of endogenous steroids. 5α-reductase inhibition is most known for preventing conversion of testosterone, the major androgen sex hormone, to the more potent dihydrotestosterone (DHT), in androgen-associated disorders.
_______________________________________

There's certainly more 5 ar's than what's listed, however some of those listed gets overlooked and could use another look though.



   

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha-reductase_inhibitor

[Lotus]

Whaaaaat? This chart and this paper say otherwise. You also used to believe that DHT could not be aromatized. What changed your mind?

Ha!, you actually caught that, I do have a sense of humor though. DHT can't be converted to estrogen.

[Lotus]

Beta sitosterol does inhibit 5-AR, but the content in peony is too low for your reference to specify it, so the effective peony dose would be impractical, and perhaps dangerous if it caused an overdose of the major components.

Oh really, then prove it!


Beta-Sitosterol: 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, reduces cholesterol (LDL)

Beta-sitosterol is a phytosterols (plant sterol) with chemical structure similar to that of cholesterol. Beta sitosterol inhibits cholesterol absorption in the intestine.[1] It can be found in many plants such as Nigella sativa, pecans, Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), etc. Beta sitosterol is incorporated in margarine, yogurt, or other foods [9].
What are the benefits of beta sitosterol?

Beta-sitosterol is commonly used for treating benign prostatic hyperplasia [2,3] and high-cholesterol [4].
In bodybuilding world Beta-sitosterol is used in many testosterone enhancers due to its possible effect in 5-alpha reductase inhibition [3,5]. As testosterone levels increase so does dihydrotestosterone (DHT – more active form). DHT is generated by a 5-alpha reduction of testosterone [6]. DHT is the primary contributing factor in male pattern baldness [7].
Prager N. et al. [8] have shown the effectiveness of Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens) and beta-sitosterol, as naturally occurring 5-alpha reductase (5AR) inhibitor, against male pattern baldness (androgenetic alopecia). This pilot study showed highly positive effects. 60% of the subjects treated were rated as improved after final check.

http://nutrientjournal.com/beta-sitoster...duces-ldl/

[Lotus]

You have not provided a legitimate answer, you're just blowing smoke in a desperate attempt to avoid having to admit that you were wrong about something.

Wrong about what?, I'll admit when I'm wrong, (which I have, and offered an apology to all, can you admit when you're wrong?).


You never did address this:

I got a Marcy Recumbent Mag Cycle from Amazon and souped up the resistance by pulling off the housing and placing Neodymium Magnets (1/2 x 1/4 inch Disc N48) on to the existing magnet. (Wearing work gloves to avoid pinched skin!) I then adjusted the resistance to the lowest level that I wasn't spinning on and worked my way up over time. My thighs are now so huge that Vaseline will not prevent me from chafing while running - I need compression shorts for that. I think my butt got bigger too. Pics below, no feminization treatments ever used.

I don't mean to sound rude but how do you go from light toned skin to very dark toned skin... Sorry I'm a moderator for another site and I feel suspicious.

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=21138&page=3

[Candace]

Beta sitosterol does inhibit 5-AR, but the content in peony is too low for your reference to specify it, so the effective peony dose would be impractical, and perhaps dangerous if it caused an overdose of the major components.

Oh really, then prove it!

I can imagine you as a pharma rep demanding that the FDA prove that your company's drug isn't safe and effective. I'll play along, though.

Since no concentration is given, we can assume that it's lower than the concentrations that are listed. Let's be generous and call it 0.03% beta sitosterol. Paeoniflorin is 3.3-9.4%. One 600 mg capsule of LEF's extract contains 252 mg paeoniflorin. Assuming that both chemicals are concentrated to the same degree in the extraction process, we would expect to see 0.8-2.3 mg of beta sitosterol in each capsule. The effective dose in the study I cited was 60 mg/day, so 26-75 capsules of peony per day would be required. Impractical!