I am on low dose, and getting more femme than I really planned on.
It is worth noting for anyone who is thinking of trying herbals that age, low-dosage, don't garuntee low physical changes.
At ~38 I would not have expected this level of effectiveness would be an issue... Dang youthfulness... I'd trade with someone that wanted more bang for their buck if I could!
My parents whom I'd just assume not discuss any of this with have commented with the weight loss (but not muscle loss) and long hair I look elven... LOL
I'm not upset by this per se, but have some concerns about being more visible than I want to be. Particularly since I want to stay passing male, and not be GQ, though andro-male is fine. And perhaps I am worrying more than I need to, my situation just has me aiming for the middle and trying to pass as male(ish). Previous responses made me think I was worrying too much. But any comments on maintaining the male illusion would be welcome. As well as any warnings and things to avoid.
Not sure how I'll manage the beach this summer, rashguard I geuss.
E is being pretty generous to me in the chest and face department, and I am not sure if I have seen less than half, or more than half of what it is going to do to me. If it is more than half I'm fine with my MTA goals, if not it might be pushing me further than I planned. I feel a little stuck because I need the E for the mental benefits of suppressing the GD, but don't dread getting caught in a situation where I don't pass as either male or female. (Well, I'd not mind except for the social/cultural impossibility of it for me in my current situation. 50-100 years from now I suspect it won't be an issue anymore, but that doesn't help me today!)
I'd be interested in wisdom folks that have about the tricky middle bit and leading up to it would be appreciated!
- Jaded Jade
It is worth noting for anyone who is thinking of trying herbals that age, low-dosage, don't garuntee low physical changes.
At ~38 I would not have expected this level of effectiveness would be an issue... Dang youthfulness... I'd trade with someone that wanted more bang for their buck if I could!
My parents whom I'd just assume not discuss any of this with have commented with the weight loss (but not muscle loss) and long hair I look elven... LOL
I'm not upset by this per se, but have some concerns about being more visible than I want to be. Particularly since I want to stay passing male, and not be GQ, though andro-male is fine. And perhaps I am worrying more than I need to, my situation just has me aiming for the middle and trying to pass as male(ish). Previous responses made me think I was worrying too much. But any comments on maintaining the male illusion would be welcome. As well as any warnings and things to avoid.
Not sure how I'll manage the beach this summer, rashguard I geuss.
E is being pretty generous to me in the chest and face department, and I am not sure if I have seen less than half, or more than half of what it is going to do to me. If it is more than half I'm fine with my MTA goals, if not it might be pushing me further than I planned. I feel a little stuck because I need the E for the mental benefits of suppressing the GD, but don't dread getting caught in a situation where I don't pass as either male or female. (Well, I'd not mind except for the social/cultural impossibility of it for me in my current situation. 50-100 years from now I suspect it won't be an issue anymore, but that doesn't help me today!)
I'd be interested in wisdom folks that have about the tricky middle bit and leading up to it would be appreciated!
- Jaded Jade
(06-01-2015, 02:35 PM)Jaded Jade Wrote: I am on low dose, and getting more femme than I really planned on.
Jade,
You're not alone here. I am constantly juggling to find the dose of PM that effectively controls my GD and leads to the least noticeable feminization. Most of the time I feel I am losing that battle!
(06-01-2015, 02:35 PM)Jaded Jade Wrote: At ~38 I would not have expected this level of effectiveness would be an issue... Dang youthfulness... I'd trade with someone that wanted more bang for their buck if I could!
I know *exactly* what you mean, and I feel the same way! I don't think it's necessarily youthfulness to blame. I'm 56 and have experienced far more breast growth than I ever expected. I know there are others moving toward full transition that would benefit far more than I with the growth. I spend most of my time trying to hide it!
(06-01-2015, 02:35 PM)Jaded Jade Wrote: I'm not upset by this per se, but have some concerns about being more visible than I want to be. Particularly since I want to stay passing male, and not be GQ, though andro-male is fine. And perhaps I am worrying more than I need to, my situation just has me aiming for the middle and trying to pass as male(ish).
Ditto...
(06-01-2015, 02:35 PM)Jaded Jade Wrote: Not sure how I'll manage the beach this summer, rashguard I geuss.
I use a rashguard, but I also have to wear a compression shirt/binder underneath it. If I don't I look like a competitor in a wet T-Shirt contest when I come out of the water. It's easy enough to justify a rashguard at the beach since I have very light skin and it protects against sun damage.
(06-01-2015, 02:35 PM)Jaded Jade Wrote: I'd be interested in wisdom folks that have about the tricky middle bit and leading up to it would be appreciated!
I don't know that I have any wisdom to impart (at least not yet). I'm still looking for the best PM dosage for managing GD (I think it is probably around 1000 mg/day). I may opt for surgery to return my chest to a more male contour in the future -- we'll see.
Good luck!
Misty
One trick I read on a FTM forum for simple binding was to take a pair of pantyhose, cut off the legs and make a neck hole and use that. Its shear, and leaves no lines. Haven't had to do that yet. This might be the year...
PM wise I am at 500mg, down from 1000mg, to decrease T conversion, and also adding Green Tea extract to boost the E a bit without as much T->E conversion. Pumpkin Seed for DHT blocking. It is the lightest plan I have come up with that seems to be gentlest on my system. Ginseng complex to preserve male fuction. (There was a greeat thread on non-T male function boosting, including NO channel stuff, but I cannot find it now...)
I'd actually be completely happy except for society/culture being super not cool with ambigious gender. o_O
Then there is the "Estrogen Yhatzee" scenario, if I am sooo super sensitive to it, maybe I need to consider social transition and being non-binary passing as female... I'm actually kinda ambivalent at a core level, but since I don't NEED that I'd prefer to avoid it. But I cannot stop the E and deal with the GD at all. Eh, we shall see.
But it is nice looking ~15 years younger than I am...
And worth the hassel to have my body feel the right shape inside my clothes. Drab though they may be... lol
- Jade
PM wise I am at 500mg, down from 1000mg, to decrease T conversion, and also adding Green Tea extract to boost the E a bit without as much T->E conversion. Pumpkin Seed for DHT blocking. It is the lightest plan I have come up with that seems to be gentlest on my system. Ginseng complex to preserve male fuction. (There was a greeat thread on non-T male function boosting, including NO channel stuff, but I cannot find it now...)
I'd actually be completely happy except for society/culture being super not cool with ambigious gender. o_O
Then there is the "Estrogen Yhatzee" scenario, if I am sooo super sensitive to it, maybe I need to consider social transition and being non-binary passing as female... I'm actually kinda ambivalent at a core level, but since I don't NEED that I'd prefer to avoid it. But I cannot stop the E and deal with the GD at all. Eh, we shall see.
But it is nice looking ~15 years younger than I am...
And worth the hassel to have my body feel the right shape inside my clothes. Drab though they may be... lol
- Jade
This post was last modified: 06-01-2015, 05:21 PM by Jaded Jade.
I think some are just extremely sensitive as you say. BO has done the same for me as you report PM has. Love it and wonder what lowering might do, but then again I promised myself a set daily amount and time of use. The mental change is even more profound than the physical.
JJ-
I hate to break it to everyone but the lower dose is the one that provides the most results, and the higher doses actually increase the anti-estrogenic response.
See this study:
Differential Binding with ERa and ERb of Phytoestrogens rich plant Pueraria Mirifca
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2009007500026&script=sci_arttext&tlng=pt#Fig2
Higher dosages just turns out to be a placebo effect.
I hate to break it to everyone but the lower dose is the one that provides the most results, and the higher doses actually increase the anti-estrogenic response.
See this study:
Differential Binding with ERa and ERb of Phytoestrogens rich plant Pueraria Mirifca
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2009007500026&script=sci_arttext&tlng=pt#Fig2
Higher dosages just turns out to be a placebo effect.
This post was last modified: 07-01-2015, 12:02 AM by Lotus.
(06-01-2015, 11:50 PM)Lotus Wrote: JJ-
I hate to break it to everyone but the lower dose is the one that provides the most results, and the higher doses actually increase the anti-estrogenic response.
See this study:
Differtial Binding with ERa and ERb of Phytoestrogens rich plant Pueraria Mirifca
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2009007500026&script=sci_arttext&tlng=pt#Fig2
Higher dosages just turns out to be a placebo effect.
Hmm... that's not what I take from the article. The article seems to suggest that high doses of phytoestrogens causes an anti-estrogenic response since the weaken phytoestrogens fill the estrogen receptors and hence prevent the "real" estrogen from binding. In the case of genetic males (with extremely low amounts of estrogen) an increase in PM would not act in the same way (at least until all the available receptors are filled). In most GMs the majority of estrogen receptors are unfilled.
OK, this is a bit simplistic but that's how I understand it. I could be completely misinterpreting the article as I skimmed it pretty quickly...
Misty
You'll find the answer here:
The estrogenic activity of P. mirifica extracts evaluated by YES systems obviously varied. However, the YES assay revealed a much lower estrogenic activity of the plant extracts compared to 17β-estradiol than observed in the vaginal cornification assay (6-8). There was a difference between the two assays, i.e., there was no metabolic activation in the ordinary YES assay while metabolic activation was initiated by both intestinal microbes (29,30) and liver enzymes (31-33). Note that the results of metabolic activation of the plant samples with the S9 fraction were not in the same direction as the test without activation in which the plant extracts exhibited stronger estrogenic activity in YES-hERα + hTIF2 (Figure 4A) than in YES-hERβ + hSRC1 (Figure 2B). This demonstrates that phytoestrogens in the native form bind more strongly to ERβ than to ERα but the metabolized form may bind more strongly to ERα than to ERβ. The result was in the same direction as tested in MCF-7 cells (33).
The present data show that the P. mirifica extracts also had antiestrogenic effects at the highest dose tested of 1000 μg/mL in both YES systems. This revealed that plant samples with no estrogenic activity in the YES assay may show antiestrogenic activity in the presence of estrogen. A similar result was obtained in the previous evaluation of the estrogenic/antiestrogenic activity of a plant sample collected from Chiang Mai province when the plant extract was incubated with 17β-estradiol in a test with MCF-7 cells. The P. mirifica EtOH extract showed a significant antagonistic effect on 17β-estradiol at medium (100 µg/mL) and high (1000 µg/mL) doses (7). These two results demonstrate that antiestrogenic activity may be one of the key biological activities of P. mirifica extracts and might be related to its potential role in the prevention of breast cancer in rats (21). Previous studies have shown that isoflavones and medicinal plants have an estrogenic action and antiestrogenic activity in the in vitro tests (34).
Also, look at the graphs for which province has the highest contents.
The estrogenic activity of P. mirifica extracts evaluated by YES systems obviously varied. However, the YES assay revealed a much lower estrogenic activity of the plant extracts compared to 17β-estradiol than observed in the vaginal cornification assay (6-8). There was a difference between the two assays, i.e., there was no metabolic activation in the ordinary YES assay while metabolic activation was initiated by both intestinal microbes (29,30) and liver enzymes (31-33). Note that the results of metabolic activation of the plant samples with the S9 fraction were not in the same direction as the test without activation in which the plant extracts exhibited stronger estrogenic activity in YES-hERα + hTIF2 (Figure 4A) than in YES-hERβ + hSRC1 (Figure 2B). This demonstrates that phytoestrogens in the native form bind more strongly to ERβ than to ERα but the metabolized form may bind more strongly to ERα than to ERβ. The result was in the same direction as tested in MCF-7 cells (33).
The present data show that the P. mirifica extracts also had antiestrogenic effects at the highest dose tested of 1000 μg/mL in both YES systems. This revealed that plant samples with no estrogenic activity in the YES assay may show antiestrogenic activity in the presence of estrogen. A similar result was obtained in the previous evaluation of the estrogenic/antiestrogenic activity of a plant sample collected from Chiang Mai province when the plant extract was incubated with 17β-estradiol in a test with MCF-7 cells. The P. mirifica EtOH extract showed a significant antagonistic effect on 17β-estradiol at medium (100 µg/mL) and high (1000 µg/mL) doses (7). These two results demonstrate that antiestrogenic activity may be one of the key biological activities of P. mirifica extracts and might be related to its potential role in the prevention of breast cancer in rats (21). Previous studies have shown that isoflavones and medicinal plants have an estrogenic action and antiestrogenic activity in the in vitro tests (34).
Also, look at the graphs for which province has the highest contents.
(06-01-2015, 11:50 PM)Lotus Wrote: I hate to break it to everyone but the lower dose is the one that provides the most results, and the higher doses actually increase the anti-estrogenic response.
See this study:
Differential Binding with ERa and ERb of Phytoestrogens rich plant Pueraria Mirifca
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0100-879X2009007500026&script=sci_arttext&tlng=pt#Fig2
Higher dosages just turns out to be a placebo effect.
I've mostly based my ratios on the minimum that gets me ~93%+ surpression of the neurological GD symptoms, and doesn't cause decrease in male function. Since I am married and that is important to my wife and I.
As far as MTA pysiological goals, I figure anything I get as a side effect while using PM+GT+PS for the mental benefits will probally be about right for my purposes. As to the maximum physiological effect, I know it is YMMV and imposible to predict.
On several forums the comments I have heard is that low dose and herbal paths will often get the full results of pharma, they just take longer. And cycling can only partially mitigate this.
As to the placebo comment, for some of the extreme high doses I have wondered about at what point the maximum effect over a given time period on an individual would be reached. To say nothing of safety concerns because hormones can be super scary.
- Jaded Jade
(06-01-2015, 11:50 PM)Lotus Wrote: JJ-
I hate to break it to everyone but the lower dose is the one that provides the most results, and the higher doses actually increase the anti-estrogenic response.
See this study:
Higher dosages just turns out to be a placebo effect.
I was wondering why I had such good growth on 1000mg, instead of 3-4000 mg some peeps are doing. I bet my liver and pancreas love me more too. LOL.
Lotus- so a revised recommendation for PM would be to stay at low doses? I'm just starting out and taking 500mg per day. Should I plan on seeing the effect for...say 30 days and assess?
Previous info made me think I should be ramping up to 2,000mg per day as my body got used to it. But reading the article, I'm thinking that lower dose will be the way to go.
Thoughts?
Previous info made me think I should be ramping up to 2,000mg per day as my body got used to it. But reading the article, I'm thinking that lower dose will be the way to go.
Thoughts?
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